Its almost like anti-sub was originally going to be part of Naval Search, then 2by3 deceided to make it a separate mission but for some reason didn't finish the program changes to do so.
I think that it is more likely that the algorithm is flawed.
1. Assume that the subs are uniformly distibuted, and the entire search radius includes only hexes that subs can enter
2. Since ASW halves range, the area covered by ASW patrol is 1/4 the area covered by Navel Search
3. Therefore, the raw probablility of detection for Navel Seach will be 4X that for ASW
IF the ASW bonus is less than 4X then Navel search will still find/attack more subs.
Now I have no idea what the ASW bonus actually is, but it should be substantially greater than 4X in order to provide a net benefit (but I bet it's not; the trials I have run are not large enough to be statistically significant but I still believe that ASW nets fewer successful attacks than Navel Search).
I use the ASW A/C to spot the subs then send out ASW TFs to kill them. Sort of a hunter/killer team. As the Allies this has worked very well against the AI especailly near friendly ports.
Only sunk one sub by A/C but tons with the ships.
I won't comment about the effectiveness or lack there of of ASW so as not to start a "Spirted" discussion amoungst some of the posters. [:-]
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits"- Darwin Awards 2003
I have seen the same thing with my PBYs and Coronados, as it seems those on naval search hit subs more than those on ASW. I have a PBY sqn on naval search and an SBD on ASW sqdn on the same island: the PBYs get spots and hits and nothing from the SBDs, even with an IJN sub camped out in the same hex.
Keep in mind that your SBD has got a range of 2 when doing ASW work.
ive damaged several subs by air in my game but didnt sink any that way. the killing is work for my DD's and now attacking at least a sub a day. ive sunk at least 8 and its december 24th 1941. im happy the way it is
Frag, The sub is spotted and camped out in the same hex. As a matter of fact, there are two of them. PBY sqdn is spotting them and hitting them, although in a recent turn so did my SBDs.
But they do so at a lesser rate despite being a larger sqdn dedicated to ASW.
My guess that exp (or lack thereof) may be a contributing factor.
ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
I have seen the same thing with my PBYs and Coronados, as it seems those on naval search hit subs more than those on ASW. I have a PBY sqn on naval search and an SBD on ASW sqdn on the same island: the PBYs get spots and hits and nothing from the SBDs, even with an IJN sub camped out in the same hex.
Keep in mind that your SBD has got a range of 2 when doing ASW work.
"Life is tough, it's even tougher when you're stupid" -SGT John M. Stryker, USMC
Of course starting as the allies in 1941, not much is past 60 exp early on, so you really do not have a choice........
Understood, but it's not like they didn't have from '39 to start getting ready for the war ... the writing was on the wall when Germany dropped by Poland for a visit. [:D]
Of course starting as the allies in 1941, not much is past 60 exp early on, so you really do not have a choice........
And no units - other than units bombing a defenseless enemy atoll - gain experience quicker. You can have 70+ experience within a month or two. I think its VP-101 or -102 that gets up to 80 within about three months. Anyone that starts at Pearl and then transfers to Townsville will get beaucoup points.
I'v got IJN subs roaming freely along eastern Oz despite the fact I have 1 USAAF B-25 Sqdrn and several RAAF Beaufort and Hudson Sqdrns & Flts on ASW patrol. All they ever do is spot the IJN subs, they never attack, and as a result, I've lost 2 AKs and 7 RAN MSWs to them.
Conversley IJN and IJA air units are constantly attacking my subs that are operating in the home islands. Heck even the ponderous Mavis has scored some hits! They haven't sunk any yet but they've damaged several badly enough for me to have to send them back to PH.
Sorry to double post but didn’t want to start a new thread.
This is getting ridiculous. I'm Allied, 2/42, and there are IJN subs rampaging along the NE coast of Australia. Ive sunk 4, damaged several, at the cost of several DD's, still there are more. I’ve got hudsons and blenheims and catalinas spread at the bases and they are just 2 or 3 hexes away from where the subs are sighted by DD's. I’ve tried ASW patrol, naval attack at naval search all at different altitudes and NOT ONE aerial ASW attack has taken place.
For that matter, I’ve never received an aerial ASW attack either.
I shall give that a try and be patient. The AI has really concentrated subs in this area and I've gone after him pretty aggressively with my old flush deck DD's. So far I've exchanged 3 of these old boys for 7 IJN subs sunk and at least 5 others hit hard over the last 3 weeks, so even without the aircraft helping out, I'm doin ok.
Personally, I don't see the need for a separate Air ASW mission. Aircraft conducting a Naval Search should be looking for any vessels, subs included. I don't know how Air ASW is modeled in WitP but it should be the same as Naval search with decreased detection ranges.
WWII subs were only spotted by aircraft when they were surfaced or at periscope depth. I can tell you from personal experience that spotting a persicope is damn hard on anything but a glassy sea and even then only if you are below 2000' and less than 2 miles away. A surfaced sub is very difficult to recognize outside of 5 miles range unless he is traveling fast enough to leave a decent wake (>14kts).
Even if an aircraft spots and attempts to attack a surfaced sub, the chances for success are slim. A fully surfaced WWII sub can submerge in less than a minute. A PBY that spots a sub is going to be hard pressed to get on top before the sub submerges. Example: a surfaced sub traveling surfaced at 10 knots crash dives upon sighting a PBY at a range of 4 miles. The PBY at a height of 2000' sights the crashdiving sub simultaneously. The PBY will cover the 4 mile distance in 2 minutes at 120knots. The sub will have had a full remaining minute to execute evasive maneuvers after his crashdive. The sub, assuming he has not changed speed, will have traveled 333 yards submerged in the 1 minute it took the PBY to arrive ontop. The PBY crew, using bombs, is not going to get a hit. With depth charges, the chances are better but still not very good. Remember, the aircrew can't change depth settings on the DCs. They were normally set for 50". The chances were excellent that the sub got away unscathed.
Most of the subs sunk by aircraft were either previously damaged in some way or failed to sight the attacker in time to evade.
CHez
Ret Navy AWCS (1972-1998)
VP-5, Jacksonville, Fl 1973-78
ASW Ops Center, Rota, Spain 1978-81
VP-40, Mt View, Ca 1981-87
Patrol Wing 10, Mt View, CA 1987-90
ASW Ops Center, Adak, Ak 1990-92
NRD Seattle 1992-96
VP-46, Whidbey Isl, Wa 1996-98
Personally, I don't see the need for a separate Air ASW mission. Aircraft conducting a Naval Search should be looking for any vessels, subs included. I don't know how Air ASW is modeled in WitP but it should be the same as Naval search with decreased detection ranges.
WWII subs were only spotted by aircraft when they were surfaced or at periscope depth. I can tell you from personal experience that spotting a persicope is damn hard on anything but a glassy sea and even then only if you are below 2000' and less than 2 miles away. A surfaced sub is very difficult to recognize outside of 5 miles range unless he is traveling fast enough to leave a decent wake (>14kts).
Even if an aircraft spots and attempts to attack a surfaced sub, the chances for success are slim. A fully surfaced WWII sub can submerge in less than a minute. A PBY that spots a sub is going to be hard pressed to get on top before the sub submerges. Example: a surfaced sub traveling surfaced at 10 knots crash dives upon sighting a PBY at a range of 4 miles. The PBY at a height of 2000' sights the crashdiving sub simultaneously. The PBY will cover the 4 mile distance in 2 minutes at 120knots. The sub will have had a full remaining minute to execute evasive maneuvers after his crashdive. The sub, assuming he has not changed speed, will have traveled 333 yards submerged in the 1 minute it took the PBY to arrive ontop. The PBY crew, using bombs, is not going to get a hit. With depth charges, the chances are better but still not very good. Remember, the aircrew can't change depth settings on the DCs. They were normally set for 50". The chances were excellent that the sub got away unscathed.
Most of the subs sunk by aircraft were either previously damaged in some way or failed to sight the attacker in time to evade.
CHez
It would seem to me there would be quite a difference between ASW and normal Naval Searches given the distances you are trying to make the contacts and the altitude needed to spot the contact. Of course this is from someone with no experience in the field[:)]
Personally, I don't see the need for a separate Air ASW mission. Aircraft conducting a Naval Search should be looking for any vessels, subs included. I don't know how Air ASW is modeled in WitP but it should be the same as Naval search with decreased detection ranges.
WWII subs were only spotted by aircraft when they were surfaced or at periscope depth. I can tell you from personal experience that spotting a persicope is damn hard on anything but a glassy sea and even then only if you are below 2000' and less than 2 miles away. A surfaced sub is very difficult to recognize outside of 5 miles range unless he is traveling fast enough to leave a decent wake (>14kts).
Even if an aircraft spots and attempts to attack a surfaced sub, the chances for success are slim. A fully surfaced WWII sub can submerge in less than a minute. A PBY that spots a sub is going to be hard pressed to get on top before the sub submerges. Example: a surfaced sub traveling surfaced at 10 knots crash dives upon sighting a PBY at a range of 4 miles. The PBY at a height of 2000' sights the crashdiving sub simultaneously. The PBY will cover the 4 mile distance in 2 minutes at 120knots. The sub will have had a full remaining minute to execute evasive maneuvers after his crashdive. The sub, assuming he has not changed speed, will have traveled 333 yards submerged in the 1 minute it took the PBY to arrive ontop. The PBY crew, using bombs, is not going to get a hit. With depth charges, the chances are better but still not very good. Remember, the aircrew can't change depth settings on the DCs. They were normally set for 50". The chances were excellent that the sub got away unscathed.
Most of the subs sunk by aircraft were either previously damaged in some way or failed to sight the attacker in time to evade.
CHez
Oh come on, you're going to destroy the myth that most of the subs in WWII were sank by aircraft[:D].
Remember the majority of subs sunk by aircraft occurred in the Atlantic after 1943 when Hunter Killer groups were being used to great effect.
If you look at the number of US subs lost in the Pacific and their causes from 41-43 you'll find Japanese air ASW wasn't particularly effective. COMSUBPAC did an extensive analysis after the war comparing US and captured Japanese records to find out how our subs had been lost.
*Sealion sunk pierside in Manila by bombers 12/10/41
Only 1 US sub was lost to aircrat while on patrol.
Bottom line is an alerted sub has an excellent chance of avoiding damage when attacked from the air. The key is "alerted".
Chez
Ret Navy AWCS (1972-1998)
VP-5, Jacksonville, Fl 1973-78
ASW Ops Center, Rota, Spain 1978-81
VP-40, Mt View, Ca 1981-87
Patrol Wing 10, Mt View, CA 1987-90
ASW Ops Center, Adak, Ak 1990-92
NRD Seattle 1992-96
VP-46, Whidbey Isl, Wa 1996-98
