To the Death

[Mist]

Ed:
It is an illusion that russians enslaved other peoples in USSR. Russians had not much enjoy and were opressed mostly just like others. I think there would be more correct to say that USSR citizens were enslaved mostly by their own will. Of course russians were used to be dominant nationality in Soviet Union but that does not allow to say that they were masters and other were slaves. And of course not all communists were russians and vice versa. well... I hope that I say clearly...
I do not know about pre-war times, but afrer war there were some priveleges of being russian. That's I believe the main reason(among many others) of USSR collapse. I wouldnt extrapolate it to WWII.
BTW: it was communists idea to divide USSR to republics by national attribute. Divide and rule. They burried themselves,as a time showed.
P.S. Counter example to you, Ed. Belorussia alliance with Russia. Moldova is willing to join. Do they want to be enslaved?

[This message has been edited by Mist (edited February 27, 2001).]

[RickyB]

Ed,

I like the looks of your scenario although I haven't been able to play it, what with freezing in the blizzards and all.

For everyone, what other scenarios could be done? I have a couple in mind. What If: the Germans went on a war footing before attacking the Soviets, instead of in 1943. What if the Soviets did not carry out their purges, raising their readiness and experience. What if the Soviets didn't attack the Finns - so the Finns are out of the war. What if the Germans started production of the Tiger tank sooner, for which early research before the war was put on hold to concentrate on production of current models, or say Panthers were ready for action. Say the Soviets did a better job of digging in prior to the invasion, or had a more advanced T34 ready.

A lot of possibilities here, and the editor allows these things to be tried, or even allow a West versus East matchup, although the map would have to be totally redone. At some point I would love to work with anybody on this - I have gotten pretty good at working with the editor, which is by no means user friendly, but it can be done - change factories, AFVs, planes, etc. The hard coded portions of the game make certain things impossible, but a lot can still be done. Anybody want any tips or help with these kind of things, just say so.

What is your favorite what if?

------------------
Rick Bancroft
Semper Fi

[GDS_Starfury]

Mist: Didnt you ever hear of the book Red Storm Rising. Or what I thought was more plausable was Sir Walter Hackets History Of WWIII and The Untold History of WWIII. These last 2 books cover other areas in depth besides central Europe and what effect WW3 would have on them. Very good reading

[Mist]

Originally posted by GDS_Starfury:
Mist: Didnt you ever hear of the book Red Storm Rising. Or what I thought was more plausable was Sir Walter Hackets History Of WWIII and The Untold History of WWIII. These last 2 books cover other areas in depth besides central Europe and what effect WW3 would have on them. Very good reading

I'll try to find it. Thank you. We have a lot of books being published here. A whole lot of western authors and german commanders of WWII. I have Manstein, Melentin, Donitz, Lidle Hart and some other authors. They are supplied by russian comments which I value very much because they make such books little more than just memories or official history books.

[Yogi Yohan]

Originally posted by Mist:
Ed:
It is an illusion that russians enslaved other peoples in USSR. Russians had not much enjoy and were opressed mostly just like others.)

You have a point Mist. All are equal under the yoke. And as you say, the Russians might not have fared any better under Stalinist rule than other nationalities and probably did not feel like a Slavic Master Race.

BUT... the non-russian nationalities of the Soviet Union had nationalist sentiments predating the Soviet Union. The Ucraine, for example had been a formally independent state (set up by Germany, by the way) for 1 or 2 years between the end of WW1 and the Russian Civil war. Not to speak of the Caucasian peoples, like the Chechens, who had fought two wars in the 19th Century (the last was 1850 something, I belive) against Russian invaders. All these peoples clearly identified Russia as the the main power base of the Bolzhevik opressors. To be free of one was for them to be free of the other.

This is the reason why so many (Ucrainians in particular) welcomed the Germans in 1941. They probably remebered the liberating armies of the Kaiser who had once established an independent Ucraine and hoped the Germans would do it again.

And as for Bielorussia and Moldova wanting to mantain ties with Russia... you do realise that Bielorussia is run by a dispicable tyrant (Lukasjenko) who ousted the nationalists from power? And Moldova does NOT want to join with Russa, only the Trans-Dniester, an enclave between Moldova and The Ucraine populated by ethnic Russians who also happen to be die-hard Communists.

[This message has been edited by Yogi Yohan (edited February 28, 2001).]

[Optha]

When a regime kills about 8 million people, just for elemination of any opposition, this will be not forgotten in 20 years. Any other land, even a Nazi-germany could use this for a liberation-lie.

[Ed Cogburn]

Originally posted by Mist:
Ed:It is an illusion that russians enslaved other peoples in USSR.

Umm, I'm a little confused here. Where did I mention people being enslaved to the Russians? I said many would like to be out from under Russian dominance, however that doesn't imply they were slaves.

It doesn't matter that Stalin oppressed everyone, non-Russians would largely feel oppressed by the Russians, because as far as they were concerned, if it comes from Moscow its Russian.

P.S. Counter example to you, Ed. Belorussia alliance with Russia. Moldova is willing to join. Do they want to be enslaved?

If you're talking about the present then of course they don't want to be oppressed. The important thing to note here is that now, Russia is a democracy more-or-less, and doesn't have someone like Stalin calling the shots, so those countries have little to fear from closer ties to the new Russia.

[Ed Cogburn]

Originally posted by Mist:
I did not mean to turn innocent Ed's post into megathread. Sorry, Ed.

No problem, on an open forum these things happen. Just look at the threads in the Art of Wargaming forum. Any thread greater then say 35 posts is talking about something that has nothing to do with the original post.

NEON DEON: You can count me retreating, lad. I saw your discussion with Ed, and so it is beyond my power to argue with you. Sorry and thank you for quite interesting reply.

Smart move, Mist.

[Ed Cogburn]

Originally posted by RickyB:
Ed,

I like the looks of your scenario although I haven't been able to play it, what with freezing in the blizzards and all.

The problem with this scenario is you don't see the differences until you've played at least a couple of years into it. The absence of the Western Air Forces is the most important thing, and those forces normally don't really get started until '43. The critical point is '43, since Germany's industries are untouched by bombing, the Germans have a lot of production coming their way.

For everyone, what other scenarios could be done? I have a couple in mind. What If: the Germans went on a war footing before attacking the Soviets, instead of in 1943. What if the Soviets did not carry out their purges, raising their readiness and experience. What if the Soviets didn't attack the Finns - so the Finns are out of the war.

I like these, although the Finns not being in the war won't have a significant impact in the game. The only factor is that without the Finns' air power, the air groups of the Leningrad front won't be attrited down by the time German air power gets in range, but I don't imagine this being a serious problem for the Germans.

What if the Germans started production of the Tiger tank sooner, for which early research before the war was put on hold to concentrate on production of current models, or say Panthers were ready for action. Say the Soviets did a better job of digging in prior to the invasion, or had a more advanced T34 ready.

Don't know about these. Consider how small Germany's tank production starts out. If they had the Tiger they couldn't build many of them. The game now has the Tiger coming in '42 anyway.

An advanced T34 wouldn't help the Soviets very much early on because the readiness penalties the Soviets suffer under will mean the Soviets would be lucky to see even one quarter of these tanks actually showing up to a fight.

[RickyB]

Originally posted by Ed Cogburn:

Don't know about these. Consider how small Germany's tank production starts out. If they had the Tiger they couldn't build many of them. The game now has the Tiger coming in '42 anyway.

An advanced T34 wouldn't help the Soviets very much early on because the readiness penalties the Soviets suffer under will mean the Soviets would be lucky to see even one quarter of these tanks actually showing up to a fight.

Ed,
Yeah, the Tiger and Panther would only make any real sense if the assumption of ramped up production was implemented also, so the production would be higher. For the Soviets, they would need something to counterbalance it. I think entrenchments and higher readiness/experience what ever from no purge would help in the early going, with stronger tanks available also, but not as much stronger as the German tanks.

The big advantage of the Finns for the Axis (in game terms) is when or if Leningrad falls by holding the line without the blizzard penalties. The whole minor nation issue could be looked at, assuming the Soviets did not take over eastern Poland, the Baltic states or Bessarabia and Upper Moldava. Some of this would fit in with the other thread about what would happen in a 1940 invasion. However, territorial changes could make the Axis job too easy, although there are changes that could help that too. Take out the Finns and Rumanians as they may not have gotten actively involved without the Soviets taking their land - the Finns almost for sure wouldn't have, and the Rumanians might have been like the Bulgarians and stayed away from the front lines. This would free up numerous divisional slots that could be used by the Soviets to field a more realistic number of divisions with a higher replacement rate to help fill them up.

I have done a little work on this, but it will probably take awhile to get anything major done.

------------------
Rick Bancroft
Semper Fi

[NEON DEON]

Originally posted by Ed Cogburn:

Smart move, Mist.

I surrender!!

Strafe me with a Yak, run me over with a t34

[Juba]

'Any thread greater then say 35 posts is talking about something that has nothing to do with the original post.'

True, I posted advice how to make a monster thread now they're discussing schools and teachears but the legendary 280 million people did stay pretty much to the same topic for 980 posts .

[Optha]

Ed,

on another post ive read something about the landlease the soviets received. Much more than weapons and warmachines: Trains/waggons, rawmaterial, logistical items. How far could the russian industie grow for military aspects witout these materials? How long would the russians need for solve their logistical problems without the help?
Are these aspects allready included in your OBC?

[Ed Cogburn]

Originally posted by Optha:
on another post ive read something about the landlease the soviets received. Much more than weapons and warmachines: Trains/waggons, rawmaterial, logistical items. How far could the russian industie grow for military aspects witout these materials? How long would the russians need for solve their logistical problems without the help?
Are these aspects allready included in your OBC?

Yes, I listened in on that thread too. I removed 7 points of resources from the Soviets to show the loss of lend-lease, but I'm not at all sure whether that is right or not. Gary's system has countries with less than 100 resources to suffer production decreases, and with the loss of 7 points along with the usual lost cities this puts the USSR right on the border-line. There was no consenus about lend-lease, and if I take more resources away, the USSR is likely to fall in '42 sometime, and I don't know if that's "realistic". Then there is the point that weakening the USSR any more, won't make this scenario interesting.

What do you think should taken away from the USSR to represent lend-lease basic supplies?

[Optha]

Does anyone really knows enough about the soviet situation, in this time, to predict, how some changes would influence the soviets?
I havnt found any usefull information jet in any book.
Can anyone help out?

[Ed Cogburn]

Originally posted by Optha:
Does anyone really knows enough about the soviet situation, in this time, to predict, how some changes would influence the soviets?
I havnt found any usefull information jet in any book. Can anyone help out?

Optha, or someone else, could you go to the Art of Wargaming forum, and post a message telling them about this variant, and we'd like to know from those who are familar with WiR, what they think the penalty should be for the USSR to represent the absence of lend-lease. Its a long-shot, but there are some very knowledgeable people there.

[Optha]

Ive found a leandlease discussion in the art of wargame-forum. After reading i sugesst:

a) Only 2 factory in the leandlease-area, which produce soviet tanks, should dissapear

b) Anything wich reduce the readiness slightly ( 10% chance of overall supplylecel decreased to 5 for one week or reduce stacking limit for armys to 4

c) Change all mech corpse into tank corpse

[Ed Cogburn]

Originally posted by Optha:
Ive found a leandlease discussion in the art of wargame-forum. After reading i sugesst:

a) Only 2 factory in the leandlease-area, which produce soviet tanks, should dissapear

The factories there don't represent LendLease support. Note that the factories producing Allied tanks and planes is gone. Those factories remaining are "spillover" from the Urals, ie, because of changes to factories in the Urals, there was no space left for all factories, so some of them were put in the LendLease/Sibera box.

b) Anything wich reduce the readiness slightly ( 10% chance of overall supplylecel decreased to 5 for one week or reduce stacking limit for armys to 4

Not sure if I can do this. It'd be tough to find this in the code.

c) Change all mech corpse into tank corpse

Ok. I've got another one too:

d) Reduce soviet rail capacity by three quarters at least, but still allow the movement of factories east. 90% of rail equipment came from Lend-Lease. Don't know if I can find this in the code either.

[frank1970]

What about a scenario not Germany attacking the SU but the SU attacking Germany in 1941?
That is what would have happened when Germany would not have started the war earlier.

[Ed Cogburn]

Originally posted by Frank:
What about a scenario not Germany attacking the SU but the SU attacking Germany in 1941?
That is what would have happened when Germany would not have started the war earlier.

No, I can't do this, but this wouldn't have happened anyway. The USSR knew Germany would be an enemy one day, but from what I've read the USSR wasn't planning for war until '42, maybe later.