Allied naval nonmovement very frustrating!!

[Grifman]

ORIGINAL: Grotius

Nope, they don't have to be there a turn to move units. They work instantly.

Ok, help clarify this for me further - don't they have to be there a turn in advance for an amphibious invasion? Or am I still confused on this. Seems like I tried an invasion the same turn I moved some transports in, but maybe it was something else I didn't understand that was preventing me.

[Barthheart]

Make sure it's not winter and your trying to invade in winter zones. Also for most countries, except Japan, each transport has only 3 points of amphib ability and it takes 5 to land a infantry and 10 to land a armour. So you'll need at least 3 transports for an infantry and 4 for a armour.

[RodentDung]

Quagmire update.

The Germans took over Scotland by repeatedly landing one soldier and using support bombards from his fleet and airplanes to wipe out the defenders. I had 3 infantry, 1 arty, 1 AA and 1 fighter originally defending Scotland.

Here is the sad part. The reason this mess was able to occur is cause my navy is completely unable to score hits on the German navy. Twice I drained every supply point from Hawaii to India to get my fleet grouped up with airsupport from England to attacking the German fleet sitting forever beside the UK. My ships never scored hits in those attacks [:@] despite spending hundreds of supply points [:@] plus I had a fair number of casualties [:@]. I only managed to damage one German bomber in a disasterous air strike. A big mess. [:(]

I learned several important lessons though for future allied campaigns. The main one is NEVER move the impotent UK heavy fleets and carriers and disband all builds of those useless ships including casualties in the UK and most probably also in the USA. The only ships which have use are light fleets once upgraded and transports. I suppose the heavies could learn to be useful if teched up but the allies for sure do not have the points to do that so its far better to make campfires out of them instead of spending a year and a half building only supply to feed them.

However, the allies are still fully determined to get some well deserved payback after we get sorted out and do just one more turn of only building supply to replace the latest and absolute last fleet wastage. I'm leaving the UK heavy fleets and carriers sitting next to Denmark so the Germans waste supply sinking them. [:D] Japan attacked Vladiostok with a mountain of artillery and took it for nothing despite me building arty, AA and infantry to beef it up so I gotta keep the Germans occupied bombing needless things while I feed Slavic meat to nippon cannon. [:@]

[hakon]

Your conclusions are too extreme. Allied heavy fleets are very important, since they are more or less the only counter to axis heeavy fleets, as long as the axis stay out of range of your CV planes. (And even vs them, they are potent if their anti air is researched by a point).

Moving your heavy fleets, otoh, is very expensive, unless you only move them one area at a time, in which case it is not so bad.

Light fleets are important vs submarines, but they are pretty expensive to build. Much better to try to hang on to the ones you start with. Repair when damaged, and dont let axis heavy fleets get to them.

To counter submarines, you need to tech up at least light fleets and cv air from the start. Teching up fighter sub attack right from the start is also pretty usefull, as they can effectively block a port on their own.

From the start, the you should probalby spend all manpower available to the UK, Canada and the Commonwealth. Infantry, fighters and artillery are good builds in the beginning, and bombers once the axis turns against russia. This is about 10 manpower a turn. On top of that, you will have about 25-30 production points, of which about 20 should be spent on research. While it is nice to build 1-2 inf as the USA sometime in 1940, to avoid early captore the West Coast, you really dont need that much until you see Japan moving towards you. (In that case, you should build milita, to stop an invasion). Until late 41, almost all of the american production needs to go into research, and and maybe little into supply (england is capable of supplying itself, usually).

You should be able to counter german invasion attempts almost every time, if you keep some air defence in scotland (2 anti air, 2 mil and 1 art should be enough for anything that Germany will usually throw at you in 1940.) Africa is harder to defend though. If germay puts all his strength against egypt, dont even try to defend it. Then it is better to pull back, and make sure to have a couple of aircraft (including 1 CV-air) in italian east africa to stop raiders from getting into the indian ocian.

Basically, what i think you did wrong, was to underestimate the importance of tech over numbers in the game, which is especially pronouned at sea. 1 point int battleship evasion almost doubles the survivability of your fleet, and without ASW-defence you loose the game.

[RodentDung]

Hakon, I finally got my ASW up to 2 on light fleets. My problem with the heavy ships is they never ever scored any hits on the German ships except for finally last turn we both lost several ships after several rounds of all-out attacking. Moving them cost all of America's production so far except for a few tanks & other paraphernalia I built in case he lands on the USA. I really think those heavy ships would be better used as decoy targets to waste German supplies in the early game.

England will fall this or next turn cause he continually lands one soldier, bombards with all ships and then brings in his entire airforce to bomb. The planes I get built/repaired are always destroyed the turn they appear. For sure 2 of AA, milia and an arty cannot hold against that cause he kills at least that many UK units every round. I got about a dozen ground and air units in England with a decent heap of supply this turn striping India bare but its all gonna die from those many bombards and Germany's got 3 tanks and 3 infantry in Scotland after bombarding his way into it previously.

My plan is for him to waste his time on England and sinking my abandoned heavy ships while Russia gets out of control powerful with steady production. He invaded Russia with Japan last turn killing my eastern units for free with arty stacks and all his planes, same formula as against England. But even with my railways maxed out moving units and supply east, I really don't think Germany will be able to invade Russia for more than one province before he catches my counter and hopefully gets pushed steadily back.

We always trade some slagging with the turn emails for extra spice. He is very happy about what he's doing against England but it looks like Russia is gonna be the one to bring him the good news. [:D]

[Uncle_Joe]

Are your Heavy Fleets in supply? If so, I can't imagine them missing all that often. Heavy Fleets have a Sea Attack of 7 dice. German Heavies have 3 Armor, a 3 Evasion, and a 4 Durability. This translates to over a 75% chance of a hit with every shot.

Now, on the other hand, if you let your fleets get caught out of supply (an easy mistake to make for early naval players), then your chances of a hit drop to about 33%. THEN I can see them missing quite often. Also note that being out of Supply means that the opposing Fleets will hit you almost 98% of the time. So, you are going from 75/75 to 33/98. That will doom any fleet.

So, the thing to watch is that you have supply in the SAME zone or an ADJACENT zone at the moment of combat. I would guess that your ships are fighting with a huge negative.

If you are keeping them in supply, then you are just horribly unlucky. In that case you should STILL use the Heavies because if your luck doesnt eventually flatten out, you are doomed anyways... [;)]

[RodentDung]

Wise old Uncle Joe, they big problem was range I think. Our ships just never shot at each other in several rounds of all-out naval attacking which was very frustrating after using up an entire round of genuine made in USA supply. I believe I would definitely still own Scotland had those ships gotten around to doing some shooting.

I'm not sure when my ships are in supply and not. I suspect you are probably right that they were not. My setup was I had a line of transports leading up the combat zone and connected to both USA and England with supply in the port provinces. Did I need to have supply actually sitting on a transport in the adjacent seazone or just connecting back to the port? If so, how much and did I need to double up my convoy (oh dear I hope not) with 2 transports in each seazone to support 3 BB's, 3 CL's, 1 CV + plane plus several landbased planes (which also missed 100%).

[RodentDung]

I forgot to add, my ships casualties were incurred by his counterattacks which I think he did with bombers and/or subs but I'm not sure cause occasionally the replay thingy didn't work.

When my ships are in the seazone ready to attack, I remember seeing red arrows to the right of the oil barrel icons on all except for the naval air group on the carrier. I don't know how to turn the arrows green before attacking.

[Uncle_Joe]

Red Arrows should be fine for those ships. That is 'extended' supply.

But I think I might see one issue. Naval combat is quite random in who can shoot. Usually only one or two participants will engage in surface combat, but subs and air will always shoot in each combat (provided the subs have torpedoes).

The important thing becomes control of the sea zone. That is determined by 'naval points'. Heavy Fleets are worth 2 and Lights, Carriers, and Naval Air are worth 1 each. Unless the attacker has twice as many naval points after the battle, he will be kicked out. So, if you mass your fleet in the way, the Germans most likely wont have enough naval points to force you out. This gives time to build a defense. You'll take losses for sure to his air, but try to use patrolling Fighters to give some air cover.

Anyways, its probably not that your ships are missing a lot, but that they arent firing as a result of the way naval combat works. If you dont mind taking losses, you can send your ships in one at a time to attack the enemy. This guarantees that each Heavy you send will fire. The downside is that the enemy fleets gang up on each of yours. But since you have more, you can whittle him down pretty quickly if he leaves his fleet at sea.

[RodentDung]

Thanks Uncle Joe. I did notice that I displaced his fleet with each impotent attack. Also I did put a fighter patrol over the fleet once out of Scotland and he treated the UK to a nasty drubbing with his bombers and took out a good lot of units so I think the UK really needs to build a decent number of new fighters early on instead of AA's.

He's got at least a halfdozen operational fighters working on the UK constantly so that means I need a lot of UKian fighters to counter them. Well, next game I guess. Now things have been delegated to the real Uncle Joe to take care of. [:D]

[hakon]

ORIGINAL: RodentDung


Hakon, I finally got my ASW up to 2 on light fleets. My problem with the heavy ships is they never ever scored any hits on the German ships except for finally last turn we both lost several ships after several rounds of all-out attacking. Moving them cost all of America's production so far except for a few tanks & other paraphernalia I built in case he lands on the USA. I really think those heavy ships would be better used as decoy targets to waste German supplies in the early game.

England will fall this or next turn cause he continually lands one soldier, bombards with all ships and then brings in his entire airforce to bomb. The planes I get built/repaired are always destroyed the turn they appear. For sure 2 of AA, milia and an arty cannot hold against that cause he kills at least that many UK units every round. I got about a dozen ground and air units in England with a decent heap of supply this turn striping India bare but its all gonna die from those many bombards and Germany's got 3 tanks and 3 infantry in Scotland after bombarding his way into it previously.

My suggestions were not meant for this game, which i assume you have lost, but for the next. By the sound of it, he is way ahead of you in tech and unit numbers, and I would be very surprised if he wouldnt slaugter russia more or less as easily as he is obviously knocking england out. Anyway, he doesnt really have to really kill russia, as long as he can fight to a standstill, he will win.

In your next game, try to build as little as possible with the US early, and try to not move your heavy fleets more than 1 area at a time, unless desperately needed. Moving them one area only costs 1 supply, the same as an infantry. If you fall too much behind in tech, you loose.

Priorities for all countries:
1st : Always have enough supply (dont spend needlessly, and make sure to build enough)
2nd : Make sure to advance the right techs. Always check your opponent's tech at the start of your turn. The western allies must always be in control of the sea, and Russia must strive for tech superiority on land.
3rd : If you have any money left, build units.

[MButtazoni]

good thread.


i think some ppl are starting to realize this game takes less shooting from the hip and more strategy and planning .

if you realize your short on supplies; it's too late.
if you realize your losing the Atlantic; it's too late.
if you realize your research is behind the enemy's research; it's way too late.

[GuruNakNak]

Now I am too scared to play anyone by mail. Seems that the newbies get smacked around allot till they start to learn the hoops!

[Barthheart]

It's the only way to learn the good stuff![:D]

[RodentDung]

ORIGINAL: GuruNakNak

Now I am too scared to play anyone by mail. Seems that the newbies get smacked around allot till they start to learn the hoops!

What's funny is everyone on this thread including a Matrix project coordinator has already assumed I've done a good job of losing this game while I really don't see how I'm going to lose this game. [:D] Supply can be rebuilt, ships can be sent out to be sunk and Germany can be invaded. I've been teching up Russia as well and got a very well rounded force built up with tech on tanks, AA, arty and infantry on the boil.

[VI66_slith]

I can tell you from exp. that Mike Mcmann's strategy works very, very well.

[ratprince]

Wow! Thanks for the compliment VI66! [&o]

I appreciate it! [:)]


Mostly it was just good dice rolls and some lucky breaks! [;)]

Later!

Mike

[RodentDung]

Rumble in Siberia
Winter '42

The Russo-Japanese war picks up with the start of a long ugly slugfest in Siberia. The Slavs trade man for man or sometimes 2 men for 1 cannon to wear down the evil ones who don't cook their fish. England holds for another round and POW preparation seminars are held for the public and people practice starving and digging trenches. Big Ben is dismantled and parts melted for the last bit of resources to go into the factories now that the convoy system is going to be finally broken.

The English have bought the rest of the free world precious time to build up armies and technology. German has put all its tech into tac bombers and subs with only 1 point of evasion on tanks and no other techs. Russia and the allies both have a nice well-rounded tech project going. AA is being specially focussed on to take care of pesky German bombers as well as infantry tech for the upcoming landings when we are mercifully thawed out. ASW has lost to German sub tech but the Slavs will take it out of the Germans for being so snively. Unfortunately its still another year until Russia and America can invade Germany.

I would take pictures but it would be too risky for dembe to see them. He's trying to scout Russia by putting transports around it so I have to keep my units inland to avoid him estimating my forces.

I will prove that there are no rules on when a player should be considered 'losing'. [:D]

[GuruNakNak]

Well it looks like Rodentdung has a plan. Wether its just to prove everyone wrong or justnto go down fighting will be interesting to see!!
Good luck. Go kick come booty[:'(]

[SeaMonkey]

By the way Rodentdung, I sift my pepper kernels and grind them myself.