Evasion Exploit Biggest Problem with the Game

[RodentDung]

Check out this picture when Germany attacked me during winter likely with suprise attack bonus. Sorry its blurry but the forum won't allow propersized screenshots to be attached.

He attacked with 11 tanks & some planes vs my 35 ground units in winter and only 1 of his tanks was damaged [8|]

In the beginning German subs and navy ruled the sea and wiped out everything afloat with evasions staying ahead of my ASW (now sub 4 vs ASW 3). His tac bombers were up to 7 evasion for bombing england which got Sealion done pretty much for free. Japan attacked Russia with a big stack of artillery and planes but he spent all the Japanese tech on subs as well so the ground saw even losses. Now he's attacked Russia with Germany as per above and its obvious I cannot hurt his tanks and they'll just drive around wherever they want to until I quit.

I was aware he was putting everything into evasion techs from early game but Russian tech is just way too slow going to keep up with that. I put tanks up 1 attack, infantry 1 evasion, AA up to 7 attack to hopefully hit his planes, and artillery is being worked on. I can see that Russia needs to put almost all its points onto tank attack tech and nothing else if it wants to have a chance. Infantry tech is too costly to effectively improve by 1943.

For me, the strategy part of wargaming is what I find interesting. I know the masses want their tech and Matrix must follow the trend to stay popular but unfortunately this evasion exploit really kills the enjoyment value of the game for me. Just cause I didn't go all out on a one tech to counter his going all out on one tech and now I must quit a game without even fighting the war. Sure tech races were a big part of the war but I think numbers and location were even bigger factors.

Its all about 'he who has the highest evasion wins'.

The reason I bought this game is cause I thought it was different from other games in that it was a true strategy game which is a rare thing to find. I like Matrix games especially Korsun Pocket and will next buy Battles in Normandy so I wanna support them. Unfortunately I am really not happy about this game which is so easily exploited. The difference one extra point on evasion adds to a unit's defense is too big I reckon.

Another exploit he used was with naval attacks in the UK area, Gibraltar area, Mediterranean and yet again with the ships around the Phillipines was to first sink the transports leading up to the ships and then attack the ships with uber-evading subs and airplanes. The problem for me was when my turn came the surviving ships were immobile due to no supply and I had to leave them there to be finished off the next turn. He repeated this exploit to destroy ships for free in all those areas, literly he took zero losses in all those attacks. In reality, ships could sail out and back again without the constant need for replenishment transports onroute as far as I know. I could be wrong cause I'm no logistical expert to be sure.

One last very small unhappy factor is the timing of the German Barbarossa attack on Russia. I've only played 2 games by email and both axis players attacked me (Russia) in winter with a suprise attack on my bigges formation which is very weird. The logic is to both prevent a Russian counterattack due to the winter penalty (plus outrageous German tank evasions) as well as avoid the 2nd winter for a nice long year which finally has a penalty for the Germans. Weren't the Russians the real ones with the winter advantage? Ya ya, I should put my units further back to avoid the surprise bonus he gets but this was my first time to play Russia and he intends attack with Japan same time as Germany next time to keep Russia frozen so I really am not interested in that evasion rubbish again.

Sorry to sound like a big mean ogre with all this mishmash. Just hoping some others might agree and request a change added in a patch. Then again I might be alone with my opinion. I don't know. Also the tech system looks like it may be difficult to alter and people might like it the way it is. I better stop talking.

[Uncle_Joe]

Its already a known issue and is being looked at for the next patch. I noted the same things with Tanks and WAllied Heavy Bombers...both are being looked at for a possible tweak.

[CommC]

I agree. One possible fix is to make the higer evasion tech values really really expensive, i.e. make the cost go up exponentially after reaching the state of the art. Historically, no unit was invulnerable.

[dembe73]

The Axis and the allies both have different weapons and there are only a few turns where Germany has the advantage in this game if you ask me even if they use tech, because of the better production capacity of the Allied side.

Side Note: you have been playing the Naval war quite well using the sitting duck with the fleet, because it stalled me enough to destroy most of the gains of Sealion. Also it ran me out of supply and caused me not to invest as much as I wanted into other things needed for Russia so using my blitz krieg ability (same one the real German army relied on to make huge gains in the start of the Russian campaign) doesnt seem unrealistic to me.

About Russia:because of supply it is very difficult to expand succesfully and to keep the gains. Remember a little place called Stalingrad: about 1 million troops have to surrender due to lack of supply. The Germans should have learned from a certain French conqueror that invaded Russia and got as far as Moscow and found out is is not very usefull when burning.

[Delphinium]

ORIGINAL: dembe73

The Axis and the allies both have different weapons and there are only a few turns where Germany has the advantage in this game if you ask me even if they use tech, because of the better production capacity of the Allied side.

Side Note: you have been playing the Naval war quite well using the sitting duck with the fleet, because it stalled me enough to destroy most of the gains of Sealion. Also it ran me out of supply and caused me not to invest as much as I wanted into other things needed for Russia so using my blitz krieg ability (same one the real German army relied on to make huge gains in the start of the Russian campaign) doesnt seem unrealistic to me.

About Russia:because of supply it is very difficult to expand succesfully and to keep the gains. Remember a little place called Stalingrad: about 1 million troops have to surrender due to lack of supply. The Germans should have learned from a certain French conqueror that invaded Russia and got as far as Moscow and found out is is not very usefull when burning.

Not sure how this is related to the above?

What was telling about the combat was the absence of ground units except for armour on the German side.
I'm hoping that something gets done about the tech issue as effectively I have put the game on ice until it gets sorted out. Maybe the combat system could be revisited, change the dice types, D8 for example? Look at the stats to do with % chance of hitting, as I feel evasion is too strong, increase randomness of shots, reduce certainty of survival.

[Uncle_Joe]

Delphinium:

A few quick fixes:

Change the World Standard for Armor Evasion to 7 (from 8).
Change Heavy Bomber Durability (stat, not WS) to 3 (from 4).
Change Battleship AA (stat, not WS) to 3 (from 4).

Doing even just these little tweaks will change the game quite a bit for the better. 'Unkillable' units become very difficult to get, so combined arms once again dominates over single unit types.

I would expect the patch to have similar changes although I dont believe anything is set in stone yet. Dont let a few issues hold you back on an otherwise great game.

[RodentDung]

Well he has infantry as well. This shows another problem created by unhittable tanks: people only use tanks when they attack, no soldiers or arty cause the tanks cannot be hit so there's no reason to risk other units. Then just keep hitting big groups of Russians with small groups of tanks until the Russians are all killed off before actually taking the territory. In reality that doesn't work cause tanks alone can seldom win battles due to terrain, mines, strongpoints, satchel charges etc.

The game design would be very hard to change to somehow make it optimal to do combined arms attacks. The cost in programming the change would most probably be too high.

I have a temporary solution at least until a patch helps us: make a house rule that only 1 point of evasion can be added to each type of unit. One per unit is max. Of course all other techs are not limited. People on this forum seem pretty reliable so once agreed its sure they would follow the rule.

What do you think of my idea? Good... bad... just more noise from the Rodent? [:D]

[Uncle_Joe]

Rodent:

Try the above changes and see if it fixes your problems with high evasion units. It has for me.

[RodentDung]

ORIGINAL: dembe73

The Axis and the allies both have different weapons and there are only a few turns where Germany has the advantage in this game if you ask me even if they use tech, because of the better production capacity of the Allied side.

The problem with backwards tech for Russia will persist because of the system design. Remember that the more of a unit you have, the more costly the tech. So if Germany has 15 tanks and Russia has 36 infantry, there's no hope at all that the Russians can ever get their infantry attack high enough to be able to hit a German tank. A way to avoid this problem is to make different costs for different tech types.

[RodentDung]

ORIGINAL: Uncle_Joe

Delphinium:

A few quick fixes:

Change the World Standard for Armor Evasion to 7 (from 8).
Change Heavy Bomber Durability (stat, not WS) to 3 (from 4).
Change Battleship AA (stat, not WS) to 3 (from 4).

The first 2 are excellent ideas. I'm not sure why you want BB's AA to be reduced. At 3 they will most likely never score hits at all. Some BB's had pretty good AA outfits like the Prince of Wales & Repulse almost held their own and the Musashi even fired gigantic shotgun shells at planes from its 18 inch guns. Does it cause problems in games?

Is there a help thread describing how to make the changes?

[Uncle_Joe]

The BB AA has to be reduced or else with one level of research, BBs are effectively immune to aircraft. The base data starts BBs with an AA of 4 dice. Thats nearly a 50/50 of hitting carrier aircraft. With one level of research, it goes to 75%+. That basically makes Battleship the dominant weapon in the Pacific, which is nonsense.

As for the examples, well, the Prince of Wales and the Repulse were both sunk in an afternoon after inflicting almost no casualties (6 planes or so?). The Musashi (and Yamato) suffered the same fate. They in no way challenged the carrier for supremacy in the war...

To make the changes, go into the /dat directory in your GGWaW folder. There is a file titled 'baseline'. There you can change the World Standards for Armor. Just make the change from 8 to 7 for Evasion. Believe me, it makes all the difference.

There is also a file called 'unit data1940' or somesuch. This has the starting base values for all the units. Find the ones listed above and make the tweaks.

Let me know what you think.

[Espejo]

ORIGINAL: Uncle_Joe

Delphinium:

A few quick fixes:

Change the World Standard for Armor Evasion to 7 (from 8).
Change Heavy Bomber Durability (stat, not WS) to 3 (from 4).
Change Battleship AA (stat, not WS) to 3 (from 4).

Doing even just these little tweaks will change the game quite a bit for the better. 'Unkillable' units become very difficult to get, so combined arms once again dominates over single unit types.

I would expect the patch to have similar changes although I dont believe anything is set in stone yet. Dont let a few issues hold you back on an otherwise great game.

I think these are excellent suggestions

[hakon]

ORIGINAL: RodentDung


In the beginning German subs and navy ruled the sea and wiped out everything afloat with evasions staying ahead of my ASW (now sub 4 vs ASW 3). His tac bombers were up to 7 evasion for bombing england which got Sealion done pretty much for free. Japan attacked Russia with a big stack of artillery and planes but he spent all the Japanese tech on subs as well so the ground saw even losses. Now he's attacked Russia with Germany as per above and its obvious I cannot hurt his tanks and they'll just drive around wherever they want to until I quit.

Out of curiosity: Is this the same game where germany did a sealion, where i said you would loose, and you said no way?

The reason i claimed you would loose, was that you had obvioudly not grasped the consequences of tech in this game (even after loosing your fleet.)

First and foremost, keep in mind that this is a _game_, not a true simulation. While one may want to modify it to be closer to a simulation (I have, pretty exstensively), one has to play by the existing rules. Basically, in the unmodified game, russia has to go for 9-9 tanks asap, and if germany goes past that, you must too (preferrably before him). Building too many units too early is by far the worst you can do. With russia, i tend to spend 1/2 to 2/3 of my income on tech in the first year, to try to catch up. Basically, to estimate if you are dangerously far behind in tech (regarding his evasion), take 3.5 times your attack (subtract 1 from your attack per enemy armor) and add the square root to the resulting number.

Say your attack is 6. 6*3.5 = 21. 21+sqrt(21) = 26. This means that any opponent with 27 or greater defence, will be almost impossible to kill. Already with opponents with 24 defence, you should research like crazy.

This may be a little gamey, but some parts of it has basis in reality. In tank, air and naval warfare, falling significantly behind in tech, will easily cause loss ratios of about 10:1 or more (how many american tanks are killed by iraqi tanks. for instance). For infantry, this is a little less true, but the russians did develop some pretty advanced weapons during WW2, and tech also simulates doctrines and training (which was the real edge the germans had).

Regarding tanks, i do agree that they are slightly too powerfull, especially their evasion. (This has been discussed at length in a previous thread) Changing that is pretty easy, though, as uncle joe pointed out. Subtracting one from their evasion solves the problem, in my experience. You still have to do some research to keep up with the germans, though.

Currently, my files are set to the following unit stat modifications:

Armor : -1 evasion (baseline and starting value)
H.bomber : all countries have 3 durability (will probably increase baseline for evasion to 5, to compensate a little)
Battleship : -1 starting AA (not baseline)
Anti air : -1 AA, +2 evasion (starting and baseline - needed to give bombers a chance to survive. Will probably reduce evasion bonus to +1 in next game )
CV Plane : +1 baseline AA (japan starts with this, the rest must tech - cv planes should be able to do some air superiority vs bombers and other cv planes. Still much weaker than fighters.)

In the next game, we will probably also redistribute some russian units, moving some units from europe to irkutsk, to make it very hard to take for Japan, reducing the current no-brainer of a double attack on russia.

[dapamdg]

While tweaking the tech is fine, and I hope they do something in the next patch, I believe Hakon is correct that your play is sub-par. No offense intended, but it sounds like you basically ignored research in favor of unit production. Bad move.[:-]

As the Russians, you should have put 2/3 to 3/4 of your production into research. Don't bother with supply while at peace, once the Axis attack you will mostly defend (using just one supply, regardless of the number of units). Large pools of supply are only needed for offense and repair -- rely on lend lease and production post-invasion for your supply needs once you begin the counter offensive. Russia starts with an edge in armor evasion, why did you not exploit that advantage? Germany has to research in more areas than you do (he needs u-boat research, you need do no naval research; Germany needs to upgrade fighters and bombers, you need only upgrade fighters), allowing Russia, despite its lesser production, to keep up with Germany in armor research.

As the WA, you really need to devote yourself to ASW research or the u-boats will kill you, especially if the Germans tech them up. Increase ASW on light fleets and on at least one kind of air unit. The WA also need to upgrade their fighters to shoot down German heavy bombers or they will pay the price.

I do not mean to be cruel, but tech is an important part of the game and you cannot ignore it or you will pay a heavy price. While the other posters are correct that certain techs need some adjustments, even so, if one ignores research (even with the suggested adjustments) then one should expect to be devastated by a player who does research.

There are three things to spend your production on: units, supply and research. If someone started complaining that the game was broken because he couldn't move or fight, and you found out the player did not bother to produce supply, how much sympathy would you feel? If the Germans work on developing Pathers and Tigers while the Russians figure the T-34 is "good enough" and just produces them in numbers, how much sympathy should one feel? Does the bad decision on the part of the Russian player make the game broken?

Again, I have sympathy with the one trick pony aspect of the argument about tweaking the tech system (the WS for armor is so far above other ground types that no other ground unit can compete. Same problem with Heavy Bombers, but it is not the WS, but the durability and the armor that causes them to outclass other air units). However, it seems just right to me that if you let your opponent get a couple of points ahead you should be punished.

[hakon]

ORIGINAL: dapamdg

As the Russians, you should have put 2/3 to 3/4 of your production into research. Don't bother with supply while at peace.

This is a bad move. Russia must have at least 40-50 resources (more is better) at any time once the war starts. There are 3 reasons for this:

1. During the first turns, you dont have enough rail to do everything, and you really need to build a big stack somewhere.
2. Unless you have the capability to hit hard, germany can spread out and take every are that you dont have units in. If you have 1-3 big stacks with striking power, you can set up dead-zones (axis-and-allies-like).
3. If you at any time risk being attacked by a superior force, you must have enough supply to fall back one area.

There are three things to spend your production on: units, supply and research. If someone started complaining that the game was broken because he couldn't move or fight, and you found out the player did not bother to produce supply, how much sympathy would you feel? If the Germans work on developing Pathers and Tigers while the Russians figure the T-34 is "good enough" and just produces them in numbers, how much sympathy should one feel? Does the bad decision on the part of the Russian player make the game broken?

IRL the T-34 _was_ good enough, in fact it more or less won the war for the soviets. But the T-34 is not the 6-8 armor tech that the soviets start with. Rather, it is more like a 8-9 tank (later models would be 9-9), and it existed only in very small numbers in 41.

But the basic point is right, research is a must, even for the soviets. In fact, the further behind you are in tech, the more you should focus on tech over numbers, as you risk getting to the point where you will _never_ hit.

[Delphinium]

I think that the complaints about the tech generally are NOT complaining about the inclusion of technology in the game, but in the way it is implemented and the EFFECT of that implementation on the game.
It does need tweaking in that in reality, no tech is independant, in that if I invent a new tank with a 75mm gun, my infantry get a free AT gun.
I find that the tech actually reduces game options, you cannot play general tech, you are forced down certain tracks by the game mechanics which are ahistoric and unrealistic. You MUST have super tanks as the Germans/Russians/Wallies and infantry is relatively unimportant except as fodder once the leviathans get going.
Ultimately if things like that become mandatory, you may as well make them an automatic part of the game system and spend time and effort on letting the players get on with grand military strategy where there is some variance in what you may wish to do.

[Erik Rutins]

We've already been looking at balance and research tweaks based on the first wave of player strategies and suggestions. Never fear, you should be happier once the next update is ready.

Regards,

- Erik

[Espejo]

Sorry if I have to put in a strategy game simulating the 2nd. world war 2/3 or 3/4 of production in research then something is terrible wrong. Millions of scientists were chained to their workplace and 1000 new Unviversities in Berlin have been build.

I never noticed soldiers with jet packs in the documentaries neither high tech tanks with monecular bonded steel wich are indestructable. [:@]

Research should be important and give you the edge but it should be all important.

Yes you could play by the ruels. But always research tanks and again tanks as Rusia or Germany where is the fun?[>:]

I thinkm it wuld be a shame if a great game like WAW will be ´reduced to a tech and research only game where always the same research startegies in the end decide.

[dapamdg]

IMHO, the Allies will win or lose depending on the fate of the USSR. Helping them is the key to Allied victory. Why does lend lease have to begin only once Germany invades the USSR? Why not establish a Murmansk run early on and give Russia some of the supply you so rightly claim they will need? The Germans will raid the transports with their u-boats, but they will do it in the Atlantic anyway, and it's easier for the WA to deal with the u-boats as close to Britain as possible.

I believe that the starting Russian armor tech levels represent the T-34, since it was the best tank in the world in 1939 (hence the evasion rating higher than anyone else's). By 1942, the T-34 was still an acceptable platform (no evasion research done), but needed a better gun, which it got in the T-34/85 (the Russians researched armor ground attack, if you will). This tank was capable enough to remain useful through the rest of the war (an 8ev 7-8ga armor is very good indeed). However, the Russians also developed very heavy tanks in the JS series (further research in armor evasion and ground attack).

[Espejo]

ORIGINAL: dapamdg

IMHO, the Allies will win or lose depending on the fate of the USSR. Helping them is the key to Allied victory. Why does lend lease have to begin only once Germany invades the USSR? Why not establish a Murmansk run early on and give Russia some of the supply you so rightly claim they will need? The Germans will raid the transports with their u-boats, but they will do it in the Atlantic anyway, and it's easier for the WA to deal with the u-boats as close to Britain as possible.

I believe that the starting Russian armor tech levels represent the T-34, since it was the best tank in the world in 1939 (hence the evasion rating higher than anyone else's). By 1942, the T-34 was still an acceptable platform (no evasion research done), but needed a better gun, which it got in the T-34/85 (the Russians researched armor ground attack, if you will). This tank was capable enough to remain useful through the rest of the war (an 8ev 7-8ga armor is very good indeed). However, the Russians also developed very heavy tanks in the JS series (further research in armor evasion and ground attack).

But neither advance made all the old weapons in the field obsolete. It is niot that research shouldn´t give you an advantage but that teh troops are getting to strong suddenly. Even if I had the design of an x-Wing fighter avaible in 1943 I doubt that in 3 month time all my productions of fighters will be changed to new design and all old units upgraded.