3 vs. 36

[Joel Billings]

Just to clear up some things:

1) Oleg's statement about Mike Wood not working on GGWaW is correct. His time has this year been going into War in the Pacific, War in the East (our Eastern Front game) and last I heard War Plan Orange (although this is supposed to take very little of his time).

2) GGWaW has in fact already outsold WitP to end users, but that should be no surprise to anyone. There are some good points listed above as to why the forum totals are what they are.

3) The reality of GGWaW vs WitP as far as future support goes has much more to do with the status and complexity of the code base as it does the sales of the game. Yes, it's always easier to justify doing work on games that are selling more, but that's only a part of the picture. WitP, as many critics and lovers of the game have pointed out (sometimes the same person is both), is very complex spaghetti code. In some ways I'm amazed that it works as well as it does. Any work on it has a greater chance of creating new bugs than it does of fixing the original bug. As we can't afford to have programmers work on it full-time forever, the more time that goes by the harder it is for the programmers to remember what they were doing in the code (making it even riskier to do work). Now if all Mike was doing was fixing bugs, it would be tough enough, but as you've probably noticed there are always a million new features that people want. And Mike has responded with a sizable number of new features. There are also endless arguments about things that some insist must be changed due to unhistorical results. Some fine points, but also many that are impossible to get just right (even if you all could agree on what that is, which this forum often can't). I have been arguing for some time that additional WitP work should focus entirely on bug fixes until any remaining major bugs are corrected (of course that day may never come). As for AI work, forget about it. The AI is as good as it's going to be. Gary couldn't improve it now without devoting many months of his time, and even if he did, it would only get marginally better (or it might get worse).
In comparison, GGWaW was written with more modern coding methods and is much easier to work with. Also, as mentioned, the game is simpler and given that the scope of the game is so much smaller (27 turns versus 1500), any work on the game including even the AI is much more manageable and productive.

4) Mr. Frag is compiling information and saves for some of the critical problems with WitP 1.50. Hopefully we can fix these problems, but it's too soon for me to say anything about what can be done. We'd certainly like to fix the major problems and get the game to be as stable and bug free as possible given the realities in item 3 above.

5) WitP is one of a kind. We think it qualifies as one of the 10 wargaming wonders of the world, bugs and all. [:)] We think it provides tremendous play value for anyone interested in this topic and level of detail. It may be harsh (and not something any sane marketing department would ever admit), but if it had to be anything close to bug free, it would never have seen the light of day. Also, I think the activity on the WitP forum is fantastic, although there's so much of it that I can't see how you guys keep up with it.

6) I'm surprised to hear a WitP grognard complaining about the poor combat animations in GGWaW. Not that we don't agree that the combat animations in GGWaW deserve some criticism, it's just that I wouldn't think that someone that plays WitP would put an emphasis on this. In GGWaW we saw the combat animations as something that would be used by a beginner to learn the flow of the battles, but would then be quickly turned off as something that slows the game down for no long term purpose (it doesn't give you any information you can't get in the combat report screen). Our art budget didn't allow us to put more effort into this part of the game that we thought was just to be used the first game. Of course, it just shows how important first impressions are, and how important graphics and a graphic payoffs from a battle well fought can be. We can appreciate the desire for more eye-candy, but we did the best we could with what he had to work with. In the end, once you play the game, we think most people will be happy to turn off the animations and won't miss having what would truly be just eye-candy.

7) In the next few months we'll be looking into various options for WitP support going forward.

[Charles2222]

ORIGINAL: Halsey

Beer and pretzels! Or, beer and donuts.[>:][:D][:D][:D]

....and seasonal turns [>:][>:][>:]

[Yamato hugger]

I looked at a friends copy of WaW. The supply rules make it too complex for the casual gamer, its too hookie without the supply rules for anyone, and it isnt realistic enough for the die hard. The casual gamer is better off with Axis and Allies (which of course is what WaW is based on, look at the map [:-]), and I would personally prefer a combined version of WiR (War in Russia) with some fan-boy tweeks of course.

[Grotius]

Joel, thanks for a thoughtful post. Glad to hear GGWaW is doing well. It deserves its success -- not to mention its quite favorable reviews in the mainstream gaming press.

I really don't think of GGWaW as beer-and-pretzels, and I've played everything from the ultra-grognardy "Advanced Squad Leader" (in tournament play, no less) to the beer-and-prezels "Strategic Command." I find WaW far more deep and satisfying than "Strategic Command" (a game I enjoyed) or "Clash of Steel" or "High Command" or even "Advanced Third Reich." HOI2, while nice, doesn't come close to GGWaW IMHO. The naval and air combat alone distinguishes WaW from the crowd. The supply system, transportation infrastructure, production, research -- these things make for a deceptively complex game.

I can't wait to see what 2by3 does with the American Civil War using this engine. I'm betting it will be the first Civil War computer game that really holds my attention.

[Grotius]

The casual gamer is better off with Axis and Allies (which of course is what WaW is based on, look at the map

I respectfully disagree. One of my PBEM opponents is a longtime player of Axis & Allies. (My current PBEM "ally" hasn't even played that.) GGWaW is this guy's first step into the wider world of wargaming, and he's loving it -- even if he's in over his head. The supply system has indeed been a challenge for him, but he's got the wargaming bug now, and there's no going back.

FWIW, the "casual gamer" can play with simple supply if they wish. Both casual gamers I know were quite happy to move on to advanced supply.

This game has nothing to do with Axis and Allies. It's a whole higher level of gaming.

[Culiacan Mexico]

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko
...Lets not forget one thing, and that is we here on WITP forum are not average gamers, not even average wargamers, or average grognards. We're totally crazy bunch, scribomaniacs, guys with no life, and crazy even by very crazy grognard's standards...

[:D] Truer words have never been spoken.

[pry]

I don't know if this is going to come across the way it is intended but I'll give it a shot...

I purchased WAW out of dare I say it "Blind Loyalty" to 2by3 and Matrix, Even though I have yet to really get into the game because after this monster I find the scale somewhat confining but I can and do see the "Fun Game" value of WAW. They deserve a commercial success with WAW and I did my part out of my limited disposable funds to help achieve that as a way of thanking them for War in the Pacific...

Having spent enormous amounts of my personal time over the last 2 years deeply involved with WitP, first helping bring WitP to life then making it even better post release I have deeper attachments to this game than most folks here and I strongly urge everyone to do their part and support 2by3/Matrix by purchasing WAW, even if you don't play it by making WAW a commercial success it allows the decision to put additional resources into WitP much easier in the future. We all want to see WitP improved and the success of WAW is one way to help make that happen.

[Banquet]

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings


WitP is one of a kind. We think it qualifies as one of the 10 wargaming wonders of the world, bugs and all. [:)]

I think you're rating it too low! [:D]

Completely agree with Pry's comments as well.. although if everybody buys WaW, will Matrix take that to mean they should concentrate more on that type of game, and distance themselves more from the detail heavy type, like WitP? I hope not..

Anyway, I'm glad to hear WaW has outsold WitP.. the more success 2by3 and Matrix get the better for all of us.

[scout1]

War in the East (our Eastern Front game)

Joel,

Not going to have a copyright problem with this are you ? Same name as the SPI classic.
Just wondering.

[fbastos]

Having spent enormous amounts of my personal time over the last 2 years deeply involved with WitP, first helping bring WitP to life then making it even better post release I have deeper attachments to this game than most folks here and I strongly urge everyone to do their part and support 2by3/Matrix by purchasing WAW, even if you don't play it by making WAW a commercial success it allows the decision to put additional resources into WitP much easier in the future. We all want to see WitP improved and the success of WAW is one way to help make that happen.

That's a great point.

Can't ask for a promise from 2by3, of course, but if 2by3 would make an opening for continued improvement of WiTP conditional to the success of GG:WaW, then I would not only buy it myself but also network to help make it an even greater success.

After all, we can hardly convince anyone to invest their time in WiTP, but us bunch of fanatics can certainly influence a lot of peeps to go for something simpler - to everybody's benefit.

F.

[Charles2222]

ORIGINAL: pry

I don't know if this is going to come across the way it is intended but I'll give it a shot...

I purchased WAW out of dare I say it "Blind Loyalty" to 2by3 and Matrix, Even though I have yet to really get into the game because after this monster I find the scale somewhat confining but I can and do see the "Fun Game" value of WAW. They deserve a commercial success with WAW and I did my part out of my limited disposable funds to help achieve that as a way of thanking them for War in the Pacific...

Having spent enormous amounts of my personal time over the last 2 years deeply involved with WitP, first helping bring WitP to life then making it even better post release I have deeper attachments to this game than most folks here and I strongly urge everyone to do their part and support 2by3/Matrix by purchasing WAW, even if you don't play it by making WAW a commercial success it allows the decision to put additional resources into WitP much easier in the future. We all want to see WitP improved and the success of WAW is one way to help make that happen.

Marvelous theory, but in my mind if you want to bolster sales, you bolster it specifically for the sort of product you want, because if you put money into products you don't want, they are much more likely to make products you don't want. If one feels like doing what you suggest, and don't like the idea of a WAW, they would be better off putting their money into additional copies of WITP, or if they're a big East Front fan such as I am, buy additional copies of that.

Only problem with buying additional copies of the same game, however, is that you don't get anything the slightest bit different, whereas if you bought WAW you would. If you're not going to play a WAW anyway, a copy of a game you do like, makes a stronger statement in my view.

[Culiacan Mexico]

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings
1) Oleg's statement about Mike Wood not working on GGWaW is correct. His time has this year been going into War in the Pacific, War in the East (our Eastern Front game) and last I heard War Plan Orange (although this is supposed to take very little of his time).


3) As for AI work, forget about it. The AI is as good as it's going to be. Gary couldn't improve it now without devoting many months of his time, and even if he did, it would only get marginally better (or it might get worse).

In comparison, GGWaW was written with more modern coding methods and is much easier to work with. Also, as mentioned, the game is simpler and given that the scope of the game is so much smaller (27 turns versus 1500), any work on the game including even the AI is much more manageable and productive.

Would it be safe to assume that War in the East will have an AI and be coded differently?

[coralsaw]

ORIGINAL: Charles_22
Marvelous theory, but in my mind if you want to bolster sales, you bolster it specifically for the sort of product you want, because if you put money into products you don't want, they are much more likely to make products you don't want. If one feels like doing what you suggest, and don't like the idea of a WAW, they would be better off putting their money into additional copies of WITP, or if they're a big East Front fan such as I am, buy additional copies of that.

Could not agree more, well said. I was (rightly or wrongly) turned off by WaW because of:

• its scope. The conquer-the-world-in-thirty-minutes concept doesn't appeal to me often, plus the last time it did I played Risk.
• its graphics, especially its battle graphics. IMO, anybody who says nowadays graphics are not important need take a look at the visual appeal of the Ms Office suite. If graphics matter to a spreadsheet, then they matter to everything. You'll find people base their purchasing decision on personal interest, reputable reviews, word of mouth, publisher's/creator's reputation, and... graphics! Good graphics = (proxy for) Good quality, which will make it easier for an impulse buyer to get the damn thing and invest time in it. Call it 'psychology of perception', if you will.
• its UI. Better than WitP but still proprietary, which means investing time to learn the ropes. Rolling your own is bad in my book, standard is good. Open is even better.

IMHO of course, and I do wish all the best to GG and 2by3 for WaW. May they become rich so we can get WiE and WitP2 faster! [:)]

/coralsaw

[Terminus]

Would it be safe to assume that War in the East will have an AI and be coded differently?

Thou shalt not assume... However, it probably won't be based on WitP, as War in the East will be about land combat, and WitP's land combat routines are a bit simplistic.

[rtrapasso]

Can't ask for a promise from 2by3, of course, but if 2by3 would make an opening for continued improvement of WiTP conditional to the success of GG:WaW, then I would not only buy it myself but also network to help make it an even greater success.

I think you'd really have to have something drawn up by a lawyer to get this to work. After all, it is much more likely that if we did this and GGWAW was a huge success, the reasonable conclusion would be "See, we don't have to spend the time and effort we devoted to WITP to get a winner. We'll just turn out simpler games like GGWAW and make more money".

[Oleg Mastruko]

ORIGINAL: coralsaw

[*] its graphics, especially its battle graphics. IMO, anybody who says nowadays graphics are not important need take a look at the visual appeal of the Ms Office suite. If graphics matter to a spreadsheet, then they matter to everything. You'll find people base their purchasing decision on personal interest, reputable reviews, word of mouth, publisher's/creator's reputation, and... graphics! Good graphics = (proxy for) Good quality, which will make it easier for an impulse buyer to get the damn thing and invest time in it. Call it 'psychology of perception', if you will.

Can't believe this, coming from WITP fan.... in which way are WITP combat animation graphics significantly better (or worse) than WAW's combat animations? They are both merely adequate representation of what goes on in (simulated) combat, and both can be turned off or skipped at will, which is what many players do anyway.

So why all this fuss about WAW combat animations, when no one on this board, and I mean *no one* ever seriously debated equally good (or bad) WITP combat animations?

And BTW I absolutely agree good graphics and eye candy are VERY important. It's just that I don't see any significant difference between WAW and WITP in this regard (and is there is any difference, then it's certainly in WAW's favor). Both games look nice to me, and WAW has much much better UI to boot.

I will play WITP in 5 years time, for sure. I rate WITP above WAW on "Great All Time List" of games and achievements of mankind, but frankly WAW is MUCH more fun, and is best enjoyment-per-minute I had or have with PC strategy or wargame in a long long long time.

I played WAW from first beta testers alpha version, which was few weeks more than year ago, and after playing the game for more than a year I still enjoy the game, explore and find new things, nuances and strategies each day! - to call this game "shallow" or simple is VERY unfair and is just wrong on so many levels (this is coming from your fellow WITP fanatic guys). WAW has lots of depth, it just does not require 500+ turns or tons of micromanagement for this depth to become obvious [:'(]

O.

[Oleg Mastruko]

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso
After all, it is much more likely that if we did this and GGWAW was a huge success, the reasonable conclusion would be "See, we don't have to spend the time and effort we devoted to WITP to get a winner. We'll just turn out simpler games like GGWAW and make more money".

Isn't that much obvious from every game on the market? [:D]

Many guys here don't realize how lucky we are to have WITP at all.

O.

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso
After all, it is much more likely that if we did this and GGWAW was a huge success, the reasonable conclusion would be "See, we don't have to spend the time and effort we devoted to WITP to get a winner. We'll just turn out simpler games like GGWAW and make more money".

Isn't that much obvious from every game on the market? [:D]

Many guys here don't realize how lucky we are to have WITP at all.

O.

Agreed - but that's why i don't think supporting GGWAW for WITP's sake is the smart move.

If we wanted to support WITP, we should buy extra copies ourselves, and gift them to fellow gamers (or better, buy them in their names). This would increase the bottom line on WITP, and increase the WITP community, and support of the game.

[Skipster]

I thought WaW was very well done. I bought it originally as a game to play when I wanted a break from HoI. I had Axis & Allies, but the AI was crap in that game. WaW was simply intended to replace A&A in my collection. Judging by the screenshots, I figured that was exactly what I was buying, an improved A&A.

I was pleasantly surprised to find it had a lot more to it than I had expected, with a lot of subtlety and clever abstractions.

The graphics are, AFAIC, the best out there for that type of game

Of course, since I got WitP, I don't have much time for WaW or HoI [:D]

As far as buying WaW to support 2x3's efforts in other areas, it really depends on 2x3's devs. If they are just making WaW so they don't have to deliver pizzas at night, that's great. If they're doing it to try to re-introduce the masses to the lost art of wargaming (and thereby getting new customers for the hardcore games they really want to do), that's also great. It's only if they are just out for the money that it's a bad thing.

And from what I've seen so far of WitP, which looks to me like a labor of love [:D], the third option seems unlikely.

[Graymane]

I think WaW is ok but suffers from some very strange behaviors (see below). My recent gaming history is that I'm a long-time Paradox gamer (EU, HOI, etc). Someone over there made a post about WaW so I checked it out and bought it. In both forums, people talked about WiTP and hence here I am, living proof that having a game like WaW will draw some people into WiTP.

I love the concept of WiTP and also the detail so this game is for me. WaW is really meant to cater to a different kind of audience I think. Fewer units, fewer choices, higher abstractions, faster play. The problem is that there are places where it takes intense micromanagement (read the supply system) that is going to turn off most casual gamers who are expecting a simpler kind of game. I actually find WiTP easier to understand than I did WaW, lol. Or at least I expect I have to move supplies around in this game, but moving them around every hex on the map like in WaW is just insane to me