Re: Early Japanese Moves Discussion
I agree with Mogami that any Japanese move in the Central Pacific against a real player has to be in December 1941. I've tried that and found that US LBA makes it too bloody dangerous past the middle of January 1942, not so much because of the LBA's own attacks on the Japanese as from all those overlapping air zones.
A US carrier TF under Haley's control, with 3 CV, makes incredibly effective reaction moves against Japanese TF's when it has all those air zones to give it precise targeting information and multiple, repeat, multiple calls for possible reaction moves. Every time an IJN TF enters another air zone, Halsey gets another opportunity to make a reaction move.
The trick for the US player is to place LBA squadrons with different ranges on each Hawaiian island. The idea is for each to have a 2-hex range squadron, a 3-hex range squadron, hopefully a 4-hex range one (for the bigger airfields) and a PBY squadron on each bloody island. With 2-hex, 3-hex, 4-hex and 7-hex air zones. That is 3-4 "rolls" for a Halsey reaction move for _each_ island! And there are four of them.
The Japanese have to grab one of the Hawaiian islands quickly and get en Johnston Island would help.
Mogami appeared to refer to US LBA and Halsey's reaction moves when he mentioned how he throws a battleship-heavy surface combat or bombardment TF out first to "draw fire" aka Halsey's reaction move. The problem here is that it is by no means certain that the Kido Butai would be able do a reaction move against a reaction move - the Japanese need their own LBA in the area to create air zones to give the Kido Butai targeting information, and US land-based fighters will cut those down even if Japanese land-based
Zeros are already on a captured island to dispute air superiority.
I.e., Mogami is absolutely right that the only way the Hawaiian Islands can be taken by the Japanese is to grab the first one in December 1941.
A Japanese player also "bets the farm" if he goes for Pearl in a two-player game. It is very much a high-risk operation just in game terms even with a "free" setup using an editor.
House rules adding historical logistic factors put an invasion of Hawaii out of sight - it would use well over half of the Japanese oil reserve. My recollection is that Jim Dunnigan or Al Nofi (Al wrote the article in the manual) said that the historic Midway campaign used about 20%. A trans-Pacific campaign (in a single bound) required immense amounts of fuel.
Wake Island historical move
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Tom Holsinger
- Posts: 2
- Joined: Thu May 04, 2000 8:00 am
I will try to state what I think is reasons for my outlook the designers of Pac War have made the Victory conditions 2-1 in points then they assigned point values for kills/control/production the US scores 15k points in production Japan 4or5k if their resource and oil pool both above 10k giving US 2-1 in that catagory which I do not believe Japan can hurt or build to match. So Japan has to make up 5k in kill and control just to draw. Japan can expect to score in excess of 20k in control and knock US down to between 15k-20k perhaps making up US production lead so it becomes clear victory is kills alot perhaps too much to even hope for. We all know Japan really stood little chance and the swiftness of their defeat is not too hard to explain. I would nor have advocated Japan even going to war in RL but in this game or any game I do not start looking for a draw (as Black against stronger oppenents in chess I am very happy with a draw) I will settle for a draw in Pac War and maybe even have to fight harder to get it because of mishaps brought about by my early stratagy but only after I have convinced myself I tried every means to win before adopting defense. I build the airbases and ports in China to allow massing of airgroups and increase supply flow but the points I am going after are not this increase in bases but the kill points from the China Armys! You can make one attack in China per month if you allow your units to go to max readiness between fights. If you conduct the advance and attacks correctly you are killing the whole lot not pushing them back (cut off and surround then kill)
The Sonias and Marys do not carry heavy loads or have long range you have to increase the airbase size at the closest base and mass bombers to have any effect it takes a long time to do this. The IJA was not ready in China and Burma till 1944 in Pac War if you pay attention to these theators from turn one you should be making progress much sooner. I capture every empty base within range I do not garrison most of the bases under my control I would like to hear from anyone who does is this point grabbing? yes it is but the game is measured by points and it rewards this action I use 1 transport and part of a BN in many cases where whole unit meets and rejoins at end destination (Rabaul, Truk, ect)I believe there should be victory points awarded to Japan on certain dates for control of certain bases and for just surviving at all till a certain date. This would make playing the defense war more enticing since possible victory awaits. Has any one (once they learned the game) ever lost as US against AI or even a human? I have not played this new version to end of game yet but in old Pac War I had countless games where Japan would be riding high and thinking things were in hand when in just 1 or 2 turns the situation reversed beyond hope of recall. Then I started trying to beat US early of course this resulted in monster battles with each sides TF growing in size from one game to the next (in first game I used to send out 2CA 2CL 4DD hahahah) The US players after a few games realized it was a mistake to commit their forces before 1jan42 so I had to start going into their waters and draw them out. Only 2 places would ever work Midway (perhaps its the name)and Johnson Island well after taking both one game and doing considerable damage to US fleet in process I wondered what I was going to do with these places since the whole series of actions leading to their capture had only been a ploy to get to US fleet. So I started bombarding PH and blowing up 100+ AC a turn
but after first couple of times they were not hurting me so bad so I landed there. After the game they told me I had killed there units on Midway and Johnson Island leaving only def Bns since they were afraid to move units from west coast. So of course all this got me thinking what if I actually tried to do this from start. The problem for CenPAc stratagey is IJN and IJA are deployed for the drive south and time is short. In old PacWar you could not take Wake on turn 1 unless you did non historical move but of course then you lost PH strike making whole thing immpossible (those BB set to react range 0 on Midway or Johnson) So idea faded then this new version with those 3 Inf divisons....well of course I did not jump right to Cen Pac at start because I did not believe their exp levels were high enough so I set them and the 7th of Northern fleet to taking bases to gain exp this was against AI
which I might add played prehaps the most placid game I ever saw the old Halsey would come to Kwajalein for a dose of Betty get clobbered and leave the door open. So I wound up with four pretty well trained divisions and a pile of BB's and CV's doing nothing and looked for a place to use them.
Wow I must have been writing my novel here when Major Tom posted his last two. I am Not inflamed I am Passionate. One of the problems with IJN scoring Midway like battle
is IJN has no radar in 42 US does and you can not surprise a TF with radar without it yourself. wish this post had been finisished before you posted. I do not know how many points you would gain by building China bases but same engineer some where else scores same points building base there. Only reason for going to China to build bases for points would be if all the ones you controled were already maxed(huh)The bases I want to build are usally done on time but sometimes their support bases lagg since my engineers are usally found at the most forward bases not the rear. As the US I build everyplace I can get a engineer to to at least max air sometimes I don't finish the port unless it is vital to my supply/repair needs. But the cycle of the game is find a enemy base with terrian good enough for at least a 6 airbase capture it, build it, stock it look to next one in range of this one. And just repeat over and over. At start Japan gets theirs just by showing up
US has to fight for theirs. This debate is older then the war. Prior to the attack the IJN airarm wanted to go to CenPac but were overruled by armys operation south. (source Fuchida to GW Prange "At Dawn We Slept") it was after this Yamamoto said he could raise hell for six months but after that no promises.
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I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a differant direction!
[This message has been edited by Mogami (edited October 09, 2000).]
The Sonias and Marys do not carry heavy loads or have long range you have to increase the airbase size at the closest base and mass bombers to have any effect it takes a long time to do this. The IJA was not ready in China and Burma till 1944 in Pac War if you pay attention to these theators from turn one you should be making progress much sooner. I capture every empty base within range I do not garrison most of the bases under my control I would like to hear from anyone who does is this point grabbing? yes it is but the game is measured by points and it rewards this action I use 1 transport and part of a BN in many cases where whole unit meets and rejoins at end destination (Rabaul, Truk, ect)I believe there should be victory points awarded to Japan on certain dates for control of certain bases and for just surviving at all till a certain date. This would make playing the defense war more enticing since possible victory awaits. Has any one (once they learned the game) ever lost as US against AI or even a human? I have not played this new version to end of game yet but in old Pac War I had countless games where Japan would be riding high and thinking things were in hand when in just 1 or 2 turns the situation reversed beyond hope of recall. Then I started trying to beat US early of course this resulted in monster battles with each sides TF growing in size from one game to the next (in first game I used to send out 2CA 2CL 4DD hahahah) The US players after a few games realized it was a mistake to commit their forces before 1jan42 so I had to start going into their waters and draw them out. Only 2 places would ever work Midway (perhaps its the name)and Johnson Island well after taking both one game and doing considerable damage to US fleet in process I wondered what I was going to do with these places since the whole series of actions leading to their capture had only been a ploy to get to US fleet. So I started bombarding PH and blowing up 100+ AC a turn
but after first couple of times they were not hurting me so bad so I landed there. After the game they told me I had killed there units on Midway and Johnson Island leaving only def Bns since they were afraid to move units from west coast. So of course all this got me thinking what if I actually tried to do this from start. The problem for CenPAc stratagey is IJN and IJA are deployed for the drive south and time is short. In old PacWar you could not take Wake on turn 1 unless you did non historical move but of course then you lost PH strike making whole thing immpossible (those BB set to react range 0 on Midway or Johnson) So idea faded then this new version with those 3 Inf divisons....well of course I did not jump right to Cen Pac at start because I did not believe their exp levels were high enough so I set them and the 7th of Northern fleet to taking bases to gain exp this was against AI
which I might add played prehaps the most placid game I ever saw the old Halsey would come to Kwajalein for a dose of Betty get clobbered and leave the door open. So I wound up with four pretty well trained divisions and a pile of BB's and CV's doing nothing and looked for a place to use them.
Wow I must have been writing my novel here when Major Tom posted his last two. I am Not inflamed I am Passionate. One of the problems with IJN scoring Midway like battle
is IJN has no radar in 42 US does and you can not surprise a TF with radar without it yourself. wish this post had been finisished before you posted. I do not know how many points you would gain by building China bases but same engineer some where else scores same points building base there. Only reason for going to China to build bases for points would be if all the ones you controled were already maxed(huh)The bases I want to build are usally done on time but sometimes their support bases lagg since my engineers are usally found at the most forward bases not the rear. As the US I build everyplace I can get a engineer to to at least max air sometimes I don't finish the port unless it is vital to my supply/repair needs. But the cycle of the game is find a enemy base with terrian good enough for at least a 6 airbase capture it, build it, stock it look to next one in range of this one. And just repeat over and over. At start Japan gets theirs just by showing up
US has to fight for theirs. This debate is older then the war. Prior to the attack the IJN airarm wanted to go to CenPac but were overruled by armys operation south. (source Fuchida to GW Prange "At Dawn We Slept") it was after this Yamamoto said he could raise hell for six months but after that no promises.
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I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a differant direction!
[This message has been edited by Mogami (edited October 09, 2000).]
I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!
Hmmm.....I think that the opposite was true. I think that the germans while plenty agresive went after the wrong targets. They went after show targets like stalingrad and moscow instead of the oil field in the south and factories.
They japanese, well I think they need to move faster. Hawaii...alaska...callcutta... or that little iland over near india...Being agresive can keep the the US of balance for quite a while. Capturing Hawaii is not that difficult if you move fast. If you can get one island I think it is over. Drop 3 zero squadrons in. Base your battleships there in a couple of bobmbardemant formations for the remainng islands and watch firworks. You will have losses. You will have to send supply in transports that you have changed the base to the island you took. If you can break the azock and issolate their other islands you are halfway there. Once you get maui up t a 4 and clear it...you are ready for another item. Take Ouahu last.
Gotta go fast. While you are doing this you should have already amphibbed in india.
after the philipines fall troops can start to push twards cutting off what is left of the connection with austrailia. Eventualy austrailia will fall.
Speed........ I do not think i have my oil in the black until....?
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Seth Meyerson
They japanese, well I think they need to move faster. Hawaii...alaska...callcutta... or that little iland over near india...Being agresive can keep the the US of balance for quite a while. Capturing Hawaii is not that difficult if you move fast. If you can get one island I think it is over. Drop 3 zero squadrons in. Base your battleships there in a couple of bobmbardemant formations for the remainng islands and watch firworks. You will have losses. You will have to send supply in transports that you have changed the base to the island you took. If you can break the azock and issolate their other islands you are halfway there. Once you get maui up t a 4 and clear it...you are ready for another item. Take Ouahu last.
Gotta go fast. While you are doing this you should have already amphibbed in india.
after the philipines fall troops can start to push twards cutting off what is left of the connection with austrailia. Eventualy austrailia will fall.
Speed........ I do not think i have my oil in the black until....?
Originally posted by Major Tom:
My Japanese strategy (simplified for fear my future PBEM opponents might be lurking!) is to hold off offensive actions once the original Japanese defensive perimiter is secured. If you forgo an offensive into the Central Pacific and go on the defensive the American losses trying to penetrate your outer barriers will be tremendous.
Having the 4 extra CV's not lost at Midway will give Japan a Carrier force stronger than the USN until 1943. With such a large force supplimented by CVL's and even CVE's the Americans will be less inclined to try and attack your bases due to fear of large reprisals.
Plus, when on the defensive the IJN can rely on the highly experienced units of the IJNAF (all those A6M and G4M groups around 80 or so experience!). Since the IJAAF forces are useless against ships, keep them in the rear areas guarding against British attacks, and attacks on Japan, Philippines, Netherland East Indies and Malaya. The IJN should place most of its recon force at the outpost barriers so that American moves are all watched closely. The recon against submarine forces can be temporarily removed until the effects are starting to be felt. Use the Ki-46, and E13A's as most of your frontier recon units, since, they do not attack submarines (due to no bomb capapcity, the E13A might have some bombs, but, I don't think they attack subs).
I believe that a smart IJN player can hold off any American invasion by at least a year, possibly even longer. The key to the Japanese is to have their fleet located in a region that can quickly respond to any American attack (in the South Pacific, Central Pacific, Netherland East Indies and the Indian Ocean). When one is on the defensive they are moving around less units and formations, resulting in a general rise of Preparation Points, meaning that they will behave better.
Most of the greatest errors of the Axis during WWII is not to konw when the initiative has shifted to their enemy. The IJN should have stopped before Midway. The Germans should have stopped before Kursk. We do have the benefit of hindsight, and we should use it!
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Seth Meyerson
Sorry about the confusion regarding bases in China. I though that you said the sole reason for conquering china is to build up airbases so you could win without having to come to blows with the US/UK rather than a military strategy to conquer china.
The only problem about the early war tactic that I have is, that I do not believe that it is the only viable solution to winning the game. If it were, why play? The game would always be determined in just 6 turns. Saying that it is the only option will result in the Japanese player ALWAYS doing it, and if they fail, they lose the game by the end of 1942. There are probably many other war-winning options that we haven't taken a look at.
My point, is, that if the Japanese remain on the defensive after the mid-42 conquests that when the USN eventually comes the Japanese will be much stronger then they would be historically (or if they tried early risky moves and lost). In 1943, no matter what, the USN will be of a specific strength (due to ship replacements, etc...). HOWEVER, if the IJN doesn't lose its carrier force in 1942 they will be MUCH stronger. It will be harder for the USN to conquer Japanese territory if there is a larger IJN and high quality IJNAF. You can sink as many USN CV's, CA's, CL's and DD's in 1941-42, but, if you don't win, they will be back by 1943 as replacements (like you didn't even sink them at all). If the IJN loses any number of carriers before 1943 then the US can attack much sooner and comparitively stronger then if the IJN was at full strength.
This is all that I state. I never said that Mogami's strategy WILL NEVER work. It is risky, just like the strategy of holding the IJN in reserve after 1942 is risky. If either is the only strategy that the IJN can use to win, then there has to be something reworked in the game.
One question... Will this early war tactic work with both the historic and non-historic first turns?
Jeremy,
The only problem about the early war tactic that I have is, that I do not believe that it is the only viable solution to winning the game. If it were, why play? The game would always be determined in just 6 turns. Saying that it is the only option will result in the Japanese player ALWAYS doing it, and if they fail, they lose the game by the end of 1942. There are probably many other war-winning options that we haven't taken a look at.
My point, is, that if the Japanese remain on the defensive after the mid-42 conquests that when the USN eventually comes the Japanese will be much stronger then they would be historically (or if they tried early risky moves and lost). In 1943, no matter what, the USN will be of a specific strength (due to ship replacements, etc...). HOWEVER, if the IJN doesn't lose its carrier force in 1942 they will be MUCH stronger. It will be harder for the USN to conquer Japanese territory if there is a larger IJN and high quality IJNAF. You can sink as many USN CV's, CA's, CL's and DD's in 1941-42, but, if you don't win, they will be back by 1943 as replacements (like you didn't even sink them at all). If the IJN loses any number of carriers before 1943 then the US can attack much sooner and comparitively stronger then if the IJN was at full strength.
This is all that I state. I never said that Mogami's strategy WILL NEVER work. It is risky, just like the strategy of holding the IJN in reserve after 1942 is risky. If either is the only strategy that the IJN can use to win, then there has to be something reworked in the game.
One question... Will this early war tactic work with both the historic and non-historic first turns?
Jeremy,
Greetings I have just agreed as US in non historical 41 first move to not do anything on turn one to allow PH strike on turn 2 (except move CV's out of port) Japan has a whole range of workable stratagys for lasting through the war, that has never been a point of disagreement with me. My whole idea though is how to get 60k victory points
more then US player. The simplest idea for surviving as Japan is dig in and train and wait it is the safest thing to do and if you should be able to win a fair share of the battles once US starts his moves. However after every battle the next one will be fought at greater odds. If there was some in game reward for lasting intill 1944-45 then it would be even more appealing to me personally. That said the way it stands I do not want to fight for 4 years each year being worse with no hope of steming the tide.
Can Japan maintain the offensive for a unlimited duration...sadly no just trying to maintain the pressure stretches the supply beyond capability to sustain and ships accumulate damage from being at sea too long.
The effort stressed is for first 6-8 turns it must yield payoff (Midway and Johnson and damage to US fleet) then a slight pause while supply catches up troops reagain readiness airunits put into place and first highspeed TF's run into PH to test defense. The IJN player will know from lossess and damage inflicted whether or not to continue or shift major effort to south (where a lack of large US bases makes things a little easier and hopefully assets will be headed for CenPac instead of south. A plan is only a bases for change and we all know no plan survives contact with the enemy. IJN player must be highly flexable to know when to change direction. Like a chess player who threatens many moves to over tax defense IJN switches back and forth. Stay flexable but don't go limp.
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I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a differant direction!
more then US player. The simplest idea for surviving as Japan is dig in and train and wait it is the safest thing to do and if you should be able to win a fair share of the battles once US starts his moves. However after every battle the next one will be fought at greater odds. If there was some in game reward for lasting intill 1944-45 then it would be even more appealing to me personally. That said the way it stands I do not want to fight for 4 years each year being worse with no hope of steming the tide.
Can Japan maintain the offensive for a unlimited duration...sadly no just trying to maintain the pressure stretches the supply beyond capability to sustain and ships accumulate damage from being at sea too long.
The effort stressed is for first 6-8 turns it must yield payoff (Midway and Johnson and damage to US fleet) then a slight pause while supply catches up troops reagain readiness airunits put into place and first highspeed TF's run into PH to test defense. The IJN player will know from lossess and damage inflicted whether or not to continue or shift major effort to south (where a lack of large US bases makes things a little easier and hopefully assets will be headed for CenPac instead of south. A plan is only a bases for change and we all know no plan survives contact with the enemy. IJN player must be highly flexable to know when to change direction. Like a chess player who threatens many moves to over tax defense IJN switches back and forth. Stay flexable but don't go limp.
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I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a differant direction!
I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!
The 20th 41st and 51st Divisions don't always start on Kwajalien and Eniwetok. So it may not be an option on all games to attack CENPAC early. Let's remember one thing, the US sigint had the Japaneese fleet less the PH attack force located pretty well. If Japan would have moved three divisions from China to the Marshall Island, I suspect readiness levels would have been different, thus the surprise raid might not have been possible. In fact the radar did spot the incomming raid about what 140 miles out. Do you think that with three divisions sitting on their doorsteps that the U.S. Command structure might have taken little things like the Midget sub contacts and a big flock of A/C comming in from the north a little more seriously? What would an hours warning difference made? The IJN used about 200 ships to go after Midway and they only had a reinforced brigade to lift. I think that if the CEA divsions start in the Marshalls then you probably oight to move the 27th US ID and the 41st US ID to the Hawaii area and also a few additional airgroups. Not to mention the US Should start with its radar capability. Sorry couldn't resist the urge to add my two cents.
Mike
Mike
You can run but you'll die tired!
Greetings Yes we can keep changing the set up. Better then what you suggest why not put the CV's in a react TF and surprise IJN strike force. MacArthur's B-17's start bombing Japan on turn 1 and raise all US LCU's readiness to 99 with 200PP's per HQ Make it "This is how it should have been"
Of course I don't know how many people will want to play Japan. Please Japan has an impossible task ahead of it, do you think a human Japan can out score you by 60k points?
Against the US AI I just use Major Toms strategy and wipe out US units intill I can safely go over to attack or use CenPac plan, or go to SouthPac it all works against the AI
but how does Japan win, not draw a sensible, thoughtfull human? Does anyone here also play War in Russia? Do you win as Axis vrs a human Soviet? I never have (never lost as Soviet vrs Human) I know the game is almost impossible when I begin but I still enjoy trying and I don't want a weak US set up or player but a few minor tweaks that would let me be Japan's High Command before the war would be interesting to move a unit here a unit there before turn one. (Won't make a big difference in end)
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I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a differant direction!
Of course I don't know how many people will want to play Japan. Please Japan has an impossible task ahead of it, do you think a human Japan can out score you by 60k points?
Against the US AI I just use Major Toms strategy and wipe out US units intill I can safely go over to attack or use CenPac plan, or go to SouthPac it all works against the AI
but how does Japan win, not draw a sensible, thoughtfull human? Does anyone here also play War in Russia? Do you win as Axis vrs a human Soviet? I never have (never lost as Soviet vrs Human) I know the game is almost impossible when I begin but I still enjoy trying and I don't want a weak US set up or player but a few minor tweaks that would let me be Japan's High Command before the war would be interesting to move a unit here a unit there before turn one. (Won't make a big difference in end)
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I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a differant direction!
I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!
I'm 4 or so months into my first AI opposed game in years. I do like the more aggressive AI, though it quickly became clear that it was as lacking as ever in the brains dept. Not a dig *at all* to Matrix, just a statement. Creating a worthy AI opponent is arguably the 'holy grail' of all wargame designers and is quite the task to do. Heh, actually i'd be scared if they succeeded to well. I have after all seen both Terimator movies. 
Its currently around 3/42 and here's the score so far.
Admiral Yamammotto has definately been following this thread and decided that he did'nt want to live with the spectre of that missing "third strike" so he came back to Pearl
and came back.
and came back yet again.
While i was certainly surprised, which was a nice sensation given i'd played my last half dozen PW games playing both sides, the value of the attacks was dubious at best.
True, they did manage to damage the shipyard and oil facilites. And yes, they did catch the old battleship Colorado, fresh from San Diego. And on the third try, they even caught the Yorktown and sank her. + they invaded the eastern most chain of the island with two divisions (after having failed to take both Wake and Midway with a quick surprise move)
But the cost.....oh the cost. First (or should i say "second" (the historical first move being the first) In exchange for one old battleship and numerous US army airforce casualties, the 1st carrier strike force suffered over 50% attrition, losing many of her precious and irreplacable pilots.
2nd return (third total) was even worse. Actually it may have been fortunate that on that same week i'd sent Halsey (with my other three carriers) to the Mariana's to do the same thing to Yamammotto who was currently using it as his advance base) Had there been a carrier battle i'd probably would have been edged given the experience differencial. As it was, this time Pearl's defences were a tad bit stronger, and the Japanese paid for the surprise of the Yorktown with *two* of her carriers, Shokaku and Zuikaku (For some reason they only brought 4 of 6 carriers back) + once more a heavy toll of her aircraft.
Now, with not even the historical Coral Sea period not having been reached the Imperial navy has lost half of her edge in pilot quality and two fleet carriers. Not a good start.
Gets better; It seems previous threads have it correct, the AI shows little to no interest in south pacific thus securing her defence line. This lapse has allowed me to do to Rabaul what the Japanese should have done (and did). Make it a major US base and a springboard into the Empire's inner defence perimeter. Forget Namura, Guadalcanal or Espirto Santo. I'm turning the whole Bismarck archipeligo into a big US army airforce carrier!
Even worse for the AI, it does'nt seem interested in securing Java and the south seas...the whole reason Japan went to war!!!!
They've only just succeeded in taking Pelemanbango, and that after four major surface battles which saw the deaths of two Japanese battlecruisers and two heavy cruisers (The British Eastern fleet 'can' do something after all!) (+ over a dozen MCS and AP's and a half dozen DD's because it failed to win air superiority)
They have the biggest oil prize now, but i'm still holding all of Java from which at the very least i can bomb the oil industry and hopefully keep Japan's oil reserve at below the 5000 mark.
Accept for the one 'first historical move' attempt on Wake, they hav'nt returned, allowing me to reinforce it with four Defence battalions, an egineer battalion and an inf brigade (+ four air groups) It is now a perfect base from which to launch sub attacks into the Empire. Midway would have been a coup.....(had it succeeded) but the AI should really secure Wake. ah well, i'm not complaiining
Finally, the AI is'nt too agressive in Burma allowing me to tip the scales in the air war already.
So overall the scorecard for the AI is not good. They've allowed themselves to suffer heavy losses in an attrition battle right from the start, their only advantage in the 10+ battleships they've sunk between the US and Britian, all but the Colorado from the historical first move.
Just a quick note on the strategy controversy. I can attest that the sit tight and hide behind the defence line is'nt a viable strategy. I preserved every Japanese carrier all the way to late 43 in my last game, and in the end it still did'nt matter, only that the US had a massive fight on its hands vs a Turkey shoot. The difference was that the US could afford the losses while Japan could not. After the draw, economics took over and the rest was "history".
What can the Japanese do? Well "game-wise" one can certainly achieve the 2 to 1 points needed, i've done it against the AI but i'd wonder if it could be duplicated vs a human player. Pearl is only vulnerable at the beginning, but one has to be quick, unless neglected, the base will get stronger each month until it becomes a pyhriffic victory at best as shown in my current game.
more later. Overall though a great conversion to a great game, I especially appreciated the tweak that allowed the Japanese to air attack the Prince of Wales and Repulse instead of the old 100% night battle that sometimes could cost the Japanese a Kongo class battleship if their luck was bad. The graphical improvements are great too.
Two quick suggestions on the improved aircraft stats. Still believe the P-40 needs to lowered by a least a point in the manuever dept. (19 to 18) As it is now, it holds its own a little too well vs the Zero, it also makes the P-39 a superfulous choice since its Man. rating is 17. Under medium altitude conditions, both aircraft preformed lacklusterly. Being a point close to each other makes the 39 more justifyable to convert a few groups to for numbers sake (before US production really starts gearing up)
Secondly, the G4M's durability rating has been raised (IMO) too high, all the way up to 17. Historically, this plane was terribly vulnerable to damage, all armor and no self sealing fuel tanks in order to maximize range. The earlier G3M and the Ki-21 Sally have durab ratings around 11 and 12. The Betty needs to be around that too.
Its currently around 3/42 and here's the score so far.
Admiral Yamammotto has definately been following this thread and decided that he did'nt want to live with the spectre of that missing "third strike" so he came back to Pearl
and came back.
and came back yet again.
While i was certainly surprised, which was a nice sensation given i'd played my last half dozen PW games playing both sides, the value of the attacks was dubious at best.
True, they did manage to damage the shipyard and oil facilites. And yes, they did catch the old battleship Colorado, fresh from San Diego. And on the third try, they even caught the Yorktown and sank her. + they invaded the eastern most chain of the island with two divisions (after having failed to take both Wake and Midway with a quick surprise move)
But the cost.....oh the cost. First (or should i say "second" (the historical first move being the first) In exchange for one old battleship and numerous US army airforce casualties, the 1st carrier strike force suffered over 50% attrition, losing many of her precious and irreplacable pilots.
2nd return (third total) was even worse. Actually it may have been fortunate that on that same week i'd sent Halsey (with my other three carriers) to the Mariana's to do the same thing to Yamammotto who was currently using it as his advance base) Had there been a carrier battle i'd probably would have been edged given the experience differencial. As it was, this time Pearl's defences were a tad bit stronger, and the Japanese paid for the surprise of the Yorktown with *two* of her carriers, Shokaku and Zuikaku (For some reason they only brought 4 of 6 carriers back) + once more a heavy toll of her aircraft.
Now, with not even the historical Coral Sea period not having been reached the Imperial navy has lost half of her edge in pilot quality and two fleet carriers. Not a good start.
Gets better; It seems previous threads have it correct, the AI shows little to no interest in south pacific thus securing her defence line. This lapse has allowed me to do to Rabaul what the Japanese should have done (and did). Make it a major US base and a springboard into the Empire's inner defence perimeter. Forget Namura, Guadalcanal or Espirto Santo. I'm turning the whole Bismarck archipeligo into a big US army airforce carrier!
Even worse for the AI, it does'nt seem interested in securing Java and the south seas...the whole reason Japan went to war!!!!
They've only just succeeded in taking Pelemanbango, and that after four major surface battles which saw the deaths of two Japanese battlecruisers and two heavy cruisers (The British Eastern fleet 'can' do something after all!) (+ over a dozen MCS and AP's and a half dozen DD's because it failed to win air superiority)
They have the biggest oil prize now, but i'm still holding all of Java from which at the very least i can bomb the oil industry and hopefully keep Japan's oil reserve at below the 5000 mark.
Accept for the one 'first historical move' attempt on Wake, they hav'nt returned, allowing me to reinforce it with four Defence battalions, an egineer battalion and an inf brigade (+ four air groups) It is now a perfect base from which to launch sub attacks into the Empire. Midway would have been a coup.....(had it succeeded) but the AI should really secure Wake. ah well, i'm not complaiining
Finally, the AI is'nt too agressive in Burma allowing me to tip the scales in the air war already.
So overall the scorecard for the AI is not good. They've allowed themselves to suffer heavy losses in an attrition battle right from the start, their only advantage in the 10+ battleships they've sunk between the US and Britian, all but the Colorado from the historical first move.
Just a quick note on the strategy controversy. I can attest that the sit tight and hide behind the defence line is'nt a viable strategy. I preserved every Japanese carrier all the way to late 43 in my last game, and in the end it still did'nt matter, only that the US had a massive fight on its hands vs a Turkey shoot. The difference was that the US could afford the losses while Japan could not. After the draw, economics took over and the rest was "history".
What can the Japanese do? Well "game-wise" one can certainly achieve the 2 to 1 points needed, i've done it against the AI but i'd wonder if it could be duplicated vs a human player. Pearl is only vulnerable at the beginning, but one has to be quick, unless neglected, the base will get stronger each month until it becomes a pyhriffic victory at best as shown in my current game.
more later. Overall though a great conversion to a great game, I especially appreciated the tweak that allowed the Japanese to air attack the Prince of Wales and Repulse instead of the old 100% night battle that sometimes could cost the Japanese a Kongo class battleship if their luck was bad. The graphical improvements are great too.
Two quick suggestions on the improved aircraft stats. Still believe the P-40 needs to lowered by a least a point in the manuever dept. (19 to 18) As it is now, it holds its own a little too well vs the Zero, it also makes the P-39 a superfulous choice since its Man. rating is 17. Under medium altitude conditions, both aircraft preformed lacklusterly. Being a point close to each other makes the 39 more justifyable to convert a few groups to for numbers sake (before US production really starts gearing up)
Secondly, the G4M's durability rating has been raised (IMO) too high, all the way up to 17. Historically, this plane was terribly vulnerable to damage, all armor and no self sealing fuel tanks in order to maximize range. The earlier G3M and the Ki-21 Sally have durab ratings around 11 and 12. The Betty needs to be around that too.
In the Earlier version, I tended to be really aggresive (reckless) as the IJN early. Knowing that losing my carriers early was a blow to offensive strength only. My land base air was pretty much my bastion strategy after that...That and massive India, China offensives. Taking Ceylon is a blast, and its much easier than taking Oahu.
I HATE LONG LANCE TORPEDOES!
Hi all. I just finished my first complete game with new version US vrs Japan AI the war ended 2nd Week of July 1944 58k points Japan 117k points US but it was really all over in Jan 44 just needed 6 months to get enough points Japan never did anything against me after losing most of fleet in first 6 months in badly conducted CenPac attack. It switched to southern pacific but was over whelmed. It captured 1 base in China in 2 1/2 years? The Kamikazes when used in large numbers with escorts managed to sink half a dozen DD's 1 CV and one CVL but that was only 2 or three times they came in any numbers last 6 months of war US CV's roamed all over home Islands and even into E China Sea Japan stopped trying to run supply convoy around April it was great fun. I finally figured out how to access new apa(l) and LST's in pool (GET Transport) a command I never use? I had 145 LST's when I first used it making the USMC go to work.
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I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a differant direction!
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I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a differant direction!
I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!
The AI is getting touched up a bit. It seems that it (Japanese AI) was too Central Pacific happy, and would bump its head on on the defenses and not realize the horrendous casualties it is getting for the poor results. The chances of a Japanese attack in the Central Pacific while the attack in South East Asia is occuring will be drastically reduced.
The OBC order of battle has been also reworked, drastically. Regarding LCU's there is a substantially different setup for the Japanese. Regarding ships, the Royal Navy has been through a major overhaul, using actual historic documentation and facts put together by Ken Hansen, the Royal Navy will NOT be the powerhouse in the pacific as it was in the original and the first release OBC's. Many ships were given arrival times a year or two too early. Some ships included in the original OBC's didn't even see service in the Pacific!
All and all, many bugs have been fixed, and cosmetic suggestions been taken.
Jeremy
The OBC order of battle has been also reworked, drastically. Regarding LCU's there is a substantially different setup for the Japanese. Regarding ships, the Royal Navy has been through a major overhaul, using actual historic documentation and facts put together by Ken Hansen, the Royal Navy will NOT be the powerhouse in the pacific as it was in the original and the first release OBC's. Many ships were given arrival times a year or two too early. Some ships included in the original OBC's didn't even see service in the Pacific!
All and all, many bugs have been fixed, and cosmetic suggestions been taken.
Jeremy
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Major Tom:
Regarding ships, the Royal Navy has been through a major overhaul, using actual historic documentation and facts put together by Ken Hansen, the Royal Navy will NOT be the powerhouse in the pacific as it was in the original and the first release OBC's. Many ships were given arrival times a year or two too early. Some ships included in the original OBC's didn't even see service in the Pacific!
Interesting. Did'nt see the Royal Navy as being a "powerhouse" in the true sense, only in the way that the AI neglected its South seas invasion by not having its main carrier elements participating and/or overseeing the whole thing. If memory serves me correctly the RN did have the quick services of its old R class battleships but historically they served little purpose and were quickly withdrawn out of the Indian ocean once Nagumo came a-calling (old battleships vs fast carriers.....bad matchup)
Since the AI was keeping all its carriers in the Central Pacific and was'nt beefing up its newly aquired land bases with naval air power, it was a simple calculated risk to send the four 'R's to beef up the ABDA forces and it paid off (resulting in a titanic night battle where the AI lost two of its Kongo class Battleships + two Aoba class CA's.
AI returned the favor by bringing in Yamato and Fuso which sank the Revenge and damaged a 2nd 'R'.
A more historical approach by the AI would have made the move potentially useless and certainly costly for the Allied player. Did'nt see the presence of the 'R's as ahistorical, just in where i sent em.
Regarding ships, the Royal Navy has been through a major overhaul, using actual historic documentation and facts put together by Ken Hansen, the Royal Navy will NOT be the powerhouse in the pacific as it was in the original and the first release OBC's. Many ships were given arrival times a year or two too early. Some ships included in the original OBC's didn't even see service in the Pacific!
Interesting. Did'nt see the Royal Navy as being a "powerhouse" in the true sense, only in the way that the AI neglected its South seas invasion by not having its main carrier elements participating and/or overseeing the whole thing. If memory serves me correctly the RN did have the quick services of its old R class battleships but historically they served little purpose and were quickly withdrawn out of the Indian ocean once Nagumo came a-calling (old battleships vs fast carriers.....bad matchup)
Since the AI was keeping all its carriers in the Central Pacific and was'nt beefing up its newly aquired land bases with naval air power, it was a simple calculated risk to send the four 'R's to beef up the ABDA forces and it paid off (resulting in a titanic night battle where the AI lost two of its Kongo class Battleships + two Aoba class CA's.
AI returned the favor by bringing in Yamato and Fuso which sank the Revenge and damaged a 2nd 'R'.
A more historical approach by the AI would have made the move potentially useless and certainly costly for the Allied player. Did'nt see the presence of the 'R's as ahistorical, just in where i sent em.
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David King
- Posts: 5
- Joined: Tue Oct 10, 2000 8:00 am
- Location: Australia
I believe the R class BB were naturally designed for use in the North Sea and did not have air conditioning as such. They were not at all suitable for tropical use and must have been horrible to work on below decks. Also their engineering plant was worn out so they were best left in port which is what the British historically did.