BBC - Hiroshima

[Sharkosaurus rex]

Just like the western Allies rushed in at Normandy???? Just leave it to the Russians to clean up the Nazi then we'll land at the last minute, make some Hollywood movies and grab all the credit!

[anarchyintheuk]

They rushed in at France, Low Countries, BOB, North Africa, Sicily, Italy, bomber offensive, murmansk convoys, lend-lease. Made movies about them too.

[usersatch]

Well, you have to admit, what the Americans suffered in Europe, it paled in comparison to what the Soviets suffered in the east. D-day casualties? Business as usual on the Eastern Front. Operation Cobra...same thing. The Ardennes? Kids stuff compared to Kursk, Moscow, Stalingrad, Rostov, etc. I dont think Ike planned on using the Russkies as fodder, but we did take a bit of time getting into France, so it might appear that way.

Personally, I dont think Uncle Joe gave two sh&ts about the island of Japan. I think what he wanted was land and resources, something Japan is not known for.

[DuckofTindalos]

Well, the Americans wanted to land in France in 1942...

[Nikademus]

Lovely fantasy that....

[X(]

[Twotribes]

It is not a fantasy that the American Military tried to organize an invasion in 1942 and 43. The British were dead set against it. and maybe correctly.

As for the crocodile tears for the Soviets, boo hoo hoo. Remind me again who agreed to a pact with Hitler in 39 that saw the transfer of oil and war materials to Germany up until the invasion in June 41. And exactly where do you thing German pilots were trained in the early 30's?

The Soviets could not have won WW2 with out the allies and without the Atomic bomb, I doubt the Allies could have beat the Germans with out the Soviets either. To claim one or the other was able to do it alone is wishful thinking.

[Tom Hunter]

When discussing the relative importance of the 2 bombs Vs. the destruction of the Kwangtung Army by the Soviets its important to remember that the Kwangtung Army had a lot of political importance for the Japanese army. It was thier largest force outside of Japan, and the whole war had been started so that Japan could have its way in China. There were even Japanese general who felt that the Kwangtung could go on fighting after the loss of the home islands!

Not very realistic, but illustrative of thier mind set.

The Soviets used to claim that Japan surrenderd because they attacked, I think its pretty obvious that this is not true, but the sudden very rapid loss of a very important army did have an impact on the leadership of Japan.

As far as the decision to drop the horrible things for me it come down to something like this.

If you don't drop them and Japan surrenders you save the lives of 150,000 to 200,00 people.

But if Japan chooses not to surrender then somewhere between 1 and 5? million people will die.

Its really ugly, ugly math no matter how you look at it, but that second choice is gambling with the lives of a lot of people.

Of course morally if your the president of the United States your obligated to protect the citizens who elected you, and if dropping the bomb might save some of thier lives, in the context of WWII you should do it.

The real moral onus lies with the Japanese Government of 1945, parts of which were perfectly happy to consume the lives of all Japanese in the flames of the war that they started, fought and glorified.

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

It is not a fantasy that the American Military tried to organize an invasion in 1942 and 43. The British were dead set against it. and maybe correctly.

I believe it was, which is not to say such an effort was impossible, but rather by my saying it was fantasy is in relation to the intial viewpoint by the US joint chiefs that they could simply draft up some divisions, ship em overseas and invade the continent within 6-8 months of entering the war without it having a superlatively high chance of coming to tears. One only has to look at the preperation and buildup required for Overlord to see it. 1943 was more realistic but the Allies still lacked experience in conducting such a large amphibious operation.

[DuckofTindalos]

I knew what you meant, Nik... now get back to your campaign against Venezuela!

[Nikademus]

the United States of Nik vehemenantly denies that it is planning to invade Venezwhatitsname. (looks at map....where the hell is that anyway? oh yeah....next to Denmark i think)

[madmickey]

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

ORIGINAL: madmickey

. Where would you place your air cover for your invasion fleet to prevent the thousands of kamikazes? If the US with all its naval air arms heaviled AA ships and experience in amphibious operation had so much problems with kamikazes at Okinawa what do you think the USSR would have face?

Wouldn't need any. The Kamikazes would have all trashed themselves against the Americans. That's when the Russians would make their move. Joe Stalin was an inhuman monster..., but he wasn't stupid.
Let the Allies pull the teeth of the Japanese defense, then make your move is the way I see it.

I thought we were debating relative importance of USSR involvement versus the atomic bombing in victory over Japan. Now you are giving the Soviets a similar role to Italy declaration of war against France in 1940.

[madmickey]

On the BBC "documentary" I wish they had realized that Uranium (Hiroshima) bomb type was not tested in New Mexico, it was the Plutonium bomb which used a much different detonating mechanism and was more powerful. I could also do with the dramatization. The actor playing Tibbet made him look ready to erupt at any second.
On a much bigger point, not much discussion was given to suffering of non-Japanese Asian due to Japanese rule. A fast end of the war saved hundreds of thousands per month.

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: madmickey
I thought we were debating relative importance of USSR involvement versus the atomic bombing in victory over Japan. Now you are giving the Soviets a similar role to Italy declaration of war against France in 1940.

YES, we were. And without the A-Bomb, we'd have had to launch "Coronet" and sucked up all those suicidal attack plans the Japs were working on. Which would leave Hokaido pretty much open to a Soviet move through the back door. The point is that once they were "in", there was no way to keep them "out" of the Post-War Occupation. And I don't think even the Japanese would call that "a good thing".

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

YES, we were. And without the A-Bomb, we'd have had to launch "Coronet" and sucked up all those suicidal attack plans the Japs were working on. Which would leave Hokaido pretty much open to a Soviet move through the back door. The point is that once they were "in", there was no way to keep them "out" of the Post-War Occupation. And I don't think even the Japanese would call that "a good thing".

Russians never wanted to invade Japan home islands... what they wanted they took (i.e. they wanted Japanese posessions on the continent)...

BTW, with what would Russian invade Japanese home islands (their situation was even more bad ship vise than German in 1940 facing England over the channel)?


Leo "Apollo11"

[witpqs]

Soviets demanded to participate in the occupation of Japan. MacArthur & Truman turned them down cold.

[ilovestrategy]

I can't say I blame them.

[Fafner]

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

YES, we were. And without the A-Bomb, we'd have had to launch "Coronet" and sucked up all those suicidal attack plans the Japs were working on. Which would leave Hokaido pretty much open to a Soviet move through the back door. The point is that once they were "in", there was no way to keep them "out" of the Post-War Occupation. And I don't think even the Japanese would call that "a good thing".

I believe Richard Franks convincingly argues that had the A-Bomb not been used, Admiral King would have "vetoed" Olympic (and by implication Coronet) given the massive Japanese military buildup on Kyushu.

US would then have just continued the next step in their strategic bombing campaign i.e. destroying the rest of Japan's railroad/road infrastructure, which would have lead to the Japanese being unable to distribute what limited rice they had (US exported 700+ tons of grain to Japan soon after their surrender), which would have lead to mass famine and the deaths of millions, if not tens of millions of Japanese. Note: there might have been a famine in Korea too given the Japanese had stolen 20-25% of their already limited rice harvest.

So, plenty of Kamizakees left for Uncle Joe had he tried to invade Hokkaido!

[Fafner]

Also, given Russia's very very very very limited amphibious capabilities, you would think Russians would invade Japan (if they even really seriously considered it) using the shortest, easiest route. Given the shortest point between mainland Asia and Japan is through Korea i.e. the Korean Straight (sometimes known as Tsushima Straight [;)]) which Stalin had all the reason to believe would be his shortly, one would assume he'd be invading Japan through Honshu, not Hokkaido.

Pure speculation on my part.

[Fafner]

woops, typo in earlier post.

700K+ tons of grain, McAurthur released around 80K tons immediately and another 600K+ tons came soonafter "fact finding."