Name This Unlimited...(54)

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Big B
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RE: Name This Unlimited...(54)

Post by Big B »

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Hmmm, the earliest model I can find is from 1921.
Keep searching, I'm pretty sure you'll find reference that it was produced just before the end of WWI, the M1921 might be it's first commercial model.

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Terminus
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RE: Name This Unlimited...(54)

Post by Terminus »

The 1921 was certainly the first commercial model, costing $225 in 1921; amazing that you could buy submachineguns in department stores back then! [X(]
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RE: Name This Unlimited...(54)

Post by Monter_Trismegistos »

First prototype models Thompson Model 1 Autorifle (actually it was a carabine) was tested in 1917 - it had poor performance (in september 1917 one carabine exploded), next versions (from now it was a SMG after changing ammo type) were Persuader (still poor performance) and Annihilator, first of the latter was produced in sprig 1918. Near the end of year first few production SMG's were ready and sent to Europe, but when they arrived armistice was already signed. It was named Thompson Sub-machinegun caliber 45 model 1919.
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RE: Name This Unlimited...(54)

Post by Big B »

ORIGINAL: Monter_Trismegistos

First prototype models Thompson Model 1 Autorifle (actually it was a carabine) was tested in 1917 - it had poor performance (in september 1917 one carabine exploded), next versions (from now it was a SMG after changing ammo type) were Persuader (still poor performance) and Annihilator, first of the latter was produced in sprig 1918. Near the end of year first few production SMG's were ready and sent to Europe, but when they arrived armistice was already signed. It was named Thompson Sub-machinegun caliber 45 model 1919.

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RE: Name This Unlimited...(54)

Post by ShermanM4 »

That's what happens when you decide to go to war without the industrial base to support it!

What do you mean by Industrial Base?
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RE: Name This Unlimited...(54)

Post by Terminus »

An industrial base is the foundation for supporting the troops in the field with what they need.

When the US expeditionary force went to Europe, it was mostly equipped with French weapons like the Hotchkiss in the picture, because the US military industries was set up to support the very small army that the US had had until then, and not the huge drafted army that had to be hurried off to the front. France had been at war for 4 years and it's military industry was up and running.
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RE: Name This Unlimited...(54)

Post by Big B »

ORIGINAL: Terminus

An industrial base is the foundation for supporting the troops in the field with what they need.

When the US expeditionary force went to Europe, it was mostly equipped with French weapons like the Hotchkiss in the picture, because the US military industries was set up to support the very small army that the US had had until then, and not the huge drafted army that had to be hurried off to the front. France had been at war for 4 years and it's military industry was up and running.

Mostly true, but the USA had THE largest industrial base in the world at the time. One of the biggest reasons that we used French and British heavy weapons (for most of the war) was that the USA was already tooled up making huge quantities of munitions for them, and the Gov decided it would be a wasted division of effort to re-tool to mass produce our own heavy weapons (except for small arms and small arms ammo) so they worked a deal with the French and British to rush the men overseas and have our Allies equip their heavy weapons needs.

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RE: Name This Unlimited...(54)

Post by Tankerace »

Don't forget, another reason the US didn't deploy the M1918 BAR is because it was feared that if the magnificent weapon (and at the time it was a marvel) was captured by the Germans, then they would begin producing it and use it against US troops. A stupid reason, but still a motivation.

I agree though on the munitions and production of foreign weapons, that's partly why the M1917 Enfield (A US .30-06 version of the Pattern 14 Enfield) was almost as, if not more, numerous in WWI France than the M1903.

When you really get down to it, the US Army and US Marines in WWI was really just US troops with foreign equipment. Foreign tanks, Foreign Helmets, Foreign weapons. The US Navy used foreign tactics... Really out of character for the United States.

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RE: Name This Unlimited...(54)

Post by ShermanM4 »

Mostly true, but the USA had THE largest industrial base in the world at the time. One of the biggest reasons that we used French and British heavy weapons (for most of the war) was that the USA was already tooled up making huge quantities of munitions for them, and the Gov decided it would be a wasted division of effort to re-tool to mass produce our own heavy weapons (except for small arms and small arms ammo) so they worked a deal with the French and British to rush the men overseas and have our Allies equip their heavy weapons needs.

B

Agree
Don't forget, another reason the US didn't deploy the M1918 BAR is because it was feared that if the magnificent weapon (and at the time it was a marvel) was captured by the Germans, then they would begin producing it and use it against US troops. A stupid reason, but still a motivation.

Exactly
An industrial base is the foundation for supporting the troops in the field with what they need.

When the US expeditionary force went to Europe, it was mostly equipped with French weapons like the Hotchkiss in the picture, because the US military industries was set up to support the very small army that the US had had until then, and not the huge drafted army that had to be hurried off to the front. France had been at war for 4 years and it's military industry was up and running.

I could not disagree with you more. The American entry into the War in Europe is as complex as the free market system that dominated business in the early 20th century. There are several factors to take into consideration. The US Declaration of War and the state of American industry in the early 20th century must be considered carefully. It shows that the US did not hurry off to war and had an ample industrial base to support the war.

The United States declared war on Germany on 4 April 1917. When closely looking at events like the Zimmerman Telegram, the Sinking of the Lusitania, the percantage of American citizens fighting in the Canadian and French armed forces, and the number of arms that were produced for sale to both the Entente and the Central Powers it is not surprising at all. Consider the long standing American Foriegn policy defined by President Washington given in his farewell address, "Do not enter into entangling alliances," this was completely unpresedented. When war was declared the US Army drafted two million soldiers and expanded the reserve to maintain three million. The US did not rush troops to Europe. Once the Entente or the Allies got wind of these numbers, their greedy hands rubbed together with excitement and demanded that the US immediately start plumping up their battalions with US Army regiments. Thankfully, both Congress and the US Army were not game for this. This act justified the British when they quipped "you Yanks always arrive late and take all the credit." You may, also, recall that the first American soldiers into combat were not Army but Marines at Bellou Woods north east of Paris.

On a personal note, my first year of College I used to hang out at a bar called the Armory. It was called this because the Colorado State armory was based in Greeley, Colorado, and it definately produced arms. In my time, it was a cool place because they had an entire hull of a B17G hanging from the ceiling and girls would actually hang out there. Back to the point, it was definately in business during the First World War, and I have never checked the production records. I bet they are in the state archive, and I am hard pressed to believe that they were not producing BAR's.

American industry in the Early 20th century was phenominal for several reasons. First, it was considered ok socially to be a laborer. Second, the American Federation of Labor and other Teamster orginizations had yet to over power the average businessman or factory owner through State law and bully-boy tactics. Third, like all countries at the time, the US Military relied on the public and private entrapenuers to arm it. The US Army had no R&D department. Although, the Navy did, and it had some of the finest vessels in all of the world.

The aircraft, the tank, the Vickers-Maxim machinegun, the French 75, the German Unterseeboot et al...was all interesting stuff but came out as a result of constant warfare that the US never faced. It would seem that the US lacked an industrial base because there was no wartime pressure to produce arms. This is a mistake to think so because the US Army already had an adventure in Mexico prior to fighting in Europe, already had 2 million men before arriving in Europe, and already was equipped by the domestic sale of arms. The demand for those arms was already there before the first Yank got off the the ship.

This begs the question why the US Army did not supply the BAR, the Thompson, or the M1917. Why did American troops fly French and British planes. Why did the infantry carry the Hotckiss? Why did the Army Tank Corps use the Renault? The US Army was underfunded and unprepared. The US Army has always suffered Congress and its own beauracracy. I can't imagine how difficult it was to maintain a 5 million man army. The US Army lacked serious combat experience or war preperation. The Army's own leadership had little idea of how to fight a modern war. A great example was the regular rifle platoon upon landing in France averaged 150 men, and within a month by order of General Pershing, it was reduced to 75 men. Again, it was not a lack of industrial capacity but the Army suffered from other problems both national and internal.

The BAR was produced because of the war and the army's growing relization of how to fight a modern war. The Hotchkiss or the Benett-Mercie was not produced because of the war. The patent goes back to 1909. The BAR was not pattented until 1918. How many Hotchkiss' were already in existence before the war even started? As stated by Tankerace there was some fear of the Germans getting hold of this pattent. This fear does not seem unwarranted when considering the widespread use of the Vickers-Maxim and the 75mm artillery piece.
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RE: Name This Unlimited...(54)

Post by Big B »

Umm, guys...tha B.A.R. M1918 was used by the AEF in France in 1918 - just as fast as they could get them to the troops ...but that wasn't until the St. Mihiel and Muese-Argonne.

From the online encyclopedia:
"The Browning BAR M1918 was a select-fire weapon allowing the user to choose either semi- or fully-automatic fire. First issued in February 1918, it was hoped the BAR might help break the stalemate of the trenches by the concept of "marching fire" -- an automatic weapon accompanying advancing squads of riflemen rushing from trench to trench. BAR gunners were issued an ammo belt with a "cup" that held the stock of the rifle at the hip. This allowed the soldier to lay suppressive fire while walking forward, keeping the enemy's head down until it was too late. 85,000 were built by war's end."

I may be a bit confused here but I think you guys were saying we never used them during the war.

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RE: Name This Unlimited...(54)

Post by Terminus »

ORIGINAL: ShermanM4


I could not disagree with you more. The American entry into the War in Europe is as complex as the free market system that dominated business in the early 20th century. There are several factors to take into consideration. The US Declaration of War and the state of American industry in the early 20th century must be considered carefully. It shows that the US did not hurry off to war and had an ample industrial base to support the war.

I never said that the issue wasn't complex, but maybe I should have been clearer. Obviously, the US industrial base was there, but it wasn't "pointed in the right direction", so to speak, i.e. it wasn't geared towards war, because the US policymakers hadn't kicked it in the butt and said, "hop to it".

And as for the US Expeditionary Force, I'll say it was hurried off to war. I mean, what was the size of the US army prior to mobilisation? 200000 men tops? (I'll admit, I have nothing concrete to base that on, so any solid data would be appreciated). Yet in under a year, US troops were pouring into France.

And I knew the marines were first into action, thank you very much. They always seem to be, don't they?[;)]
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RE: Name This Unlimited...(54)

Post by Big B »

ORIGINAL: Terminus
...snip

And as for the US Expeditionary Force, I'll say it was hurried off to war. I mean, what was the size of the US army prior to mobilisation? 200000 men tops? (I'll admit, I have nothing concrete to base that on, so any solid data would be appreciated). Yet in under a year, US troops were pouring into France.

...

Hey Terminus, there are lot's of books carrying the information you were asking about - but that dosen't do you much good here (I mean, you'd have to find them and buy them)

BUT - here is a site you can access right now that has tons of good info..
http://www.worldwar1.com/dbc/

B
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RE: Name This Unlimited...(54)

Post by Terminus »

Thanks, B. I'll take a look at it...
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RE: Name This Unlimited...(54)

Post by Brady »


Hotchkiss, it is[:)]


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Nice Sight RBWhite, I snaged the pick from another sight but I added the one you linked to my favorates as well[:)]
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RE: Name This Unlimited...(54)

Post by RBWhite »

I shocked myself, got on my first search
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RE: Name This Unlimited...(54)

Post by anarchyintheuk »

ORIGINAL: ShermanM4

You may, also, recall that the first American soldiers into combat were not Army but Marines at Bellou Woods north east of Paris.

The first US infantry combat casualties of WW1 were suffered by the 1st US ID (no Marine formations) during trial placements in the front line in 11/1917.

The 26th US ID (no Marine formations) was attacked by the Germans close to St. Mihiel on 4/20/17.

1st US ID also fought the first major US offensive at Cantigny on 5/28/17.

2nd US ID (of which the Marine brigade was only one of two brigades) fought at Chateau Thierry/Belleau Wood in 6/18.

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RE: Name This Unlimited...(54)

Post by oi_you_nutter »

ORIGINAL: anarchyintheuk

ORIGINAL: ShermanM4

You may, also, recall that the first American soldiers into combat were not Army but Marines at Bellou Woods north east of Paris.

The first US infantry combat casualties of WW1 were suffered by the 1st US ID (no Marine formations) during trial placements in the front line in 11/1917.

The 26th US ID (no Marine formations) was attacked by the Germans close to St. Mihiel on 4/20/17.

1st US ID also fought the first major US offensive at Cantigny on 5/28/17.

2nd US ID (of which the Marine brigade was only one of two brigades) fought at Chateau Thierry/Belleau Wood in 6/18.

are these dates correct ?

the US declared war on the 6th April 1917, were US forces in combat with 2 weeks ?
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RE: Name This Unlimited...(54)

Post by Tankerace »

He probablt means April and May 1918, not 1917.
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RE: Name This Unlimited...(54)

Post by Big B »

ORIGINAL: Tankerace

He probablt means April and May 1918, not 1917.

Yes, he made a typo as far as the Cantigny assault by the US 1st Div being on May 28 1918 (not 1917).
However, he is correct about the first US war dead in the trenches occuring in Nov 1917. They were Thomas Enright, Merle Hay, and James Gresham - all died in a German trench raid abot 3AM Nov 3rd 1917 (along with losing 12 men as POW's)....The USA's first dead in the trenches, all US Army, all 1st ID.

The first major action fought by the Americans on the Western Front was as ShermanM4 correctly points out - fought by the 26th "Yankee" Division - at Seicheprey, a regimental size affair fought on April 20, 1918.

ShermanM4 is right - the Marines were not "The First To Fight" for the US in WWI.
The Marines, may however have been the first to land in France in the Summer of 1917...I'm not positive about that point - But in this Forum I'm quite confident someone will shortly arrise and set the truth straight on THAT point.

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RE: Name This Unlimited...(54)

Post by Major Destruction »

ORIGINAL: ShermanM4 Second, the American Federation of Labor and other Teamster orginizations had yet to over power the average businessman or factory owner through State law and bully-boy tactics.

Holy shit!

Revisionism in all its sordid glory!

Written with todays values about yesterdays actions.

Next thing you'll be telling us how Henry Ford and his ilk protected the doughboys from the ravages or war and how today's congressmenn and senators urge their sons to become rifle men.
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