Japanese pilot replacement at start pool

[Speedysteve]

I now have nightmares of FLAK.........

[Nikademus]

yep...no more shutt'n down the airbase in one strike with massive hits scored from low altitude.

That is...not unless you want to pay for it. [;)]

[WhoCares]

Slightly off-topic and just out of curiosity, does the CHS do changes like suggested in this thread or are they close to the original database with that respects?

Edit:
Yes it is (at least to a certain extent): CHS Docu

[Speedysteve]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

yep...no more shutt'n down the airbase in one strike with massive hits scored from low altitude.

That is...not unless you want to pay for it. [;)]

You telling me. My current PM bombing efforts are from 20K as you know = 1 airfield hit if i'm lucky [;)]

[Nikademus]

yep. PM is very heavily defended by flak.

You have to attack at high alt just as the Japanese did at Lunga to prevent an unacceptible daily rate of attrition.

I think it's acceptible however....so com'on.....attack at 6000 feet. I dare ya. [:'(]

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

I'm finding that an initial pool of 1000 pilots is working well for the IJN though I recently cut the replacement rate in half down to 25 pilots per month. By mid 42 after moderate attrition the pool was down to 50%. Even after 1.5 month's of reletively light activity, that pool is still @ 50%. With the replacement rate reduction it will probably cut the theoretical pool even closer to threadbare by mid 42 depending on player actions.

It OUGHT to work fantastically considering the Japanes started the war without enough trained pilots to even man the planes they had. The "at start" pool is already a gift..., 1000 is winning the lottery.

[Speedysteve]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

yep. PM is very heavily defended by flak.

You have to attack at high alt just as the Japanese did at Lunga to prevent an unacceptible daily rate of attrition.

I think it's acceptible however....so com'on.....attack at 6000 feet. I dare ya. [:'(]

You DARE me ya? So IF I accept and carry out this dare what do I get? (Except a decimated Daitai [;)])

[Nikademus]

Still a bit early to tell. Under the old replacement rate, the Japanese naval pool was 50% depleated with only moderate attrition from two high level air campaigns. (Java and PM operation) Even after two months of inactivity its still sitting at 50% while the JAAF pool was all but exhausted.

The "effect" it gave was what i wanted, Japanese experience levels have been dropping steadily from since game start vs the floor pulled out from under them due to exp 30-40 pilots replacing lost pilots starting on 12/7/41.

AI tests showed the new pool settings depleated 100% by late 42. PBEM is the real acid test however.

edit:
It OUGHT to work fantastically considering the Japanes started the war without enough trained pilots to even man the planes they had.

**

Yep. I know...I own Pettie's good work (Sunburst) which details the Japanese pilot program and that they didnt' have enough pilots to fill out all their ranks at war's start.

So why the contradiction in my mod? Again it all ties in to what the pool truely represents and 'what' constitues a fully trained pilot. (opinions as everyone knows, differ on this point) There also remain the problems of having to use one pool to fill out all assocated airgroups from transports to patrol planes to carrier pilots etc etc.

In the end, my 'goal' is to create an effect since trying to simply represent a hard "reality" doesn't necessarily fit within the game framework (Realty would be as Mogami and you mentioned, Japan starts with "zero" pilots in the pool) The goal is to simulate the steady downward curve of Japanese experience during the first year - year and a half of the war vs what is seen now which is a more or less instant drop of exp levels due to the immediate integration of untrained/incompletely trained pilots as soon as losses are suffered.

Its just my personal preference but given my task loads, i dont wish to partake of Mogami's innovative "solution" in regards to on map pilot training. It also enhances the AI which doesn't even have ability to control replacements. (another partial solution)

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: Speedy


[You DARE me ya? So IF I accept and carry out this dare what do I get? (Except a decimated Daitai [;)])

Well you might actually cause serious damage to my airfield and nab a plane or two on the ground. Isn't that worth it? Dont all your pilots want to die in battle for you? Or are they not true Klingons?!!!

[Bombur]

The 2nd-gen Allied aircraft MVR ratings are influenced to represent the high-speed/high altitude advantage that they had over most of the Japanese types they faced. Thats the idea at least. P-47D would be a good example. Its a brick of course..but at high altitude it was fast and suprisingly maneuverable 'at' those fast speeds. Its an abstraction of course.

-Yes, but this implies that, to some extent, speed is counted two times. One time in the speed properly (which is the most important variable, as you noticed) and another time when it´s incorporated in the maneuver calculation. I personally would like to see maneuvering reworked. It would give something like this:

1-Oscar/Nate/Claude: 38
2-Oscar II: 37
3-A6M2/A6M3: 35
4-P-51/Ki-84/Spitifire/Ki-100/Hellcat/A6M5/A6M8: 34
4-N1K2/Ki-61/F4F:33
5-P-38/F4U/J2M/Ki-44: 32
6-P-40/P-47: 31
7-P-39: 30 (no single engine fighter with less than 30, except, maybe, Fulmar and Firefly)

Suggestions are welcomed

[Bombur]

You might be interested in my mod for your next game. It attempts to address much of what has been highlighted in this thread. [:)]

-Yes, Nik mod is a very interesting one, lots of intelligent solutions for the worst aspects of WiTP engine. I would try it if I were you[:D]

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: Bombur


Yes, but this implies that, to some extent, speed is counted two times. One time in the speed properly (which is the most important variable, as you noticed) and another time when it´s incorporated in the maneuver calculation.

Yes. The idea (abstracted of course) was that at higher altitudes and at higher maintained speeds, The 2nd gen aircraft in question preformed better overall and have more MVR (at that point) vs the Japanese plane of which for the 1st generation planes in particular, their highest MVR occurs at lower speeds.

In the game though it can sometimes be representative of double jeperady but as i mentioned, a few points of MVR wont make all that much difference because speed is a much more weighted variable.

[CapAndGown]

Nik,

I have been thinking about the IJN pilot pool as well and I think what is messing things up is the incredibly high exp level for the japanese training program.

What if the experience level for "trained" IJN pilots was reduced to 50 or 55. Then you could set the replacement rate at a more realistic 25 to 30 per month. The only problem would be that your "pool" would be added to the fleet with a very low exp number. The answer to that is to move the "highly trained" pilots out of the pool and into the squadrons themselve. Then you would have 3 or 4 extra pilots for every Datai that represented people graduating from the IJN's pre-war training program.

Edit: Another advantage of this approach would be that raw recruits really would be dogs.

[Damien Thorn]

In addition to trained vs non-trained replacements, you also have to consider that the "trained" level drops every year for Japan no matter how well you manage your plane pool. So, even if you have 30,000 trained pilots in your pool, those pilots coming out in 1945 will have much lower levels than those coming out in 1942. I've always hated this because you can't change it with the editor except to set the 1941 levels absurdly high.

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: cap_and_gown

What if the experience level for "trained" IJN pilots was reduced to 50 or 55. Then you could set the replacement rate at a more realistic 25 to 30 per month. The only problem would be that your "pool" would be added to the fleet with a very low exp number. The answer to that is to move the "highly trained" pilots out of the pool and into the squadrons themselve. Then you would have 3 or 4 extra pilots for every Datai that represented people graduating from the IJN's pre-war training program.

Yes, i've thought about this approach as well and it might well be a more valid approach. Admitedly though, I am liking the results i'm seeing with my current system because it is producing the desired result of gradually dropping Japanese exp. I've read up on many comments by the Japanese themselves on the negative comments they had towards the batches of replacements but this has to be weighed against the fact that they themselves had come through a very strigent program which only became more relaxed as the war situation worsened. Therefore based on this theory i dont have a problem seeing replacements coming in at 65-75 but with a very low trickle rate (even at 25 pilots per month...thats not much ,esp when one remembers that op losses in the game take pilots with them) and that the pool must serve the entire airforce in question)

The starting pool simply represents some padding....it gives the Japanese a window by which they can fill out their airgroups and might a short term war before the pool exhausts and they start gettting the true dregs. the pilots that come out from this standing pool abstractly represent the batches of pilots who came through a program that was still generally nitpicky but starting to get abreviated as wartime demands made themselves felt.)

However this isn't to say the alternate suggestion re-forwarded by you wont work just as well. Problem of course is that it takes time to really flesh it out. I'm at nearly 9/42 in my first test game. Pilot pool is at 50%, and avg exp levels have dropped on average 10-15 points for the elite units. This allows them to still be competant but not overwhelmingly so. A recent AI/AI test had both Japanese pools exhausted by late 42 (but of course thats with AI management or "mis" management [;)] )

[Bradley7735]

ORIGINAL: Damien Thorn

In addition to trained vs non-trained replacements, you also have to consider that the "trained" level drops every year for Japan no matter how well you manage your plane pool. So, even if you have 30,000 trained pilots in your pool, those pilots coming out in 1945 will have much lower levels than those coming out in 1942. I've always hated this because you can't change it with the editor except to set the 1941 levels absurdly high.

Damien,

Pilot replacements (the pilot pool) stays constant throughout the war. However, new air groups will have their average starting exp decline throughout the game (allies go up).

[Damien Thorn]

ORIGINAL: Bradley7735

Damien,

Pilot replacements (the pilot pool) stays constant throughout the war. However, new air groups will have their average starting exp decline throughout the game (allies go up).

Wow, I didn't know that. That's good news. So replacements always use the value for 1941? I really don't care what starting groups come in at since they'll all be replaced by replacment pilots eventually anyway.

[mogami]

Hi, I am getting to where I want to hurt people who think the Japanese pool is where their trained pilots come from.

It is not.

It has never been.

Trying to make it the source of trained pilots is butt weasel cheating.


In the words of the great man.,


"TRAIN YOUR OWN PILOTS...BUTT WEASEL" "Quit looking for handouts"

[witpqs]

Beer Mog, beer.

[Bombur]

Hmmmmm....I had an idea. You set the pilot exp for Japan in 95 for 1941, 90 in 1942, 85 in 1943, 80 in 1944 and 75 in 1945, and give 1(one) new pilot/month, this will allow you to have an unlimited supply of relatively well trained recruits (exp around 40-50 instead of 30)