Japanese pilot replacement at start pool

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Apollo11
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RE: Japanese pilot replacement at start pool

Post by Apollo11 »

Hi all,
ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez
Are you sure about this?

As far as I remember the Japan always had the _BEST_ literacy percentage of any nation in the world (even now)...

Yup, I'm sure. Japan was primarily an feudal society still and literacy for the masses was not high on the totem pole. Fewer than 20% of her pilots were college educated and most of these received their education in America or Britain. The majority were enlisted pilots who were educated to the high school level. However, the majority of her enlisted troops seldom had any effective schooling beyond what we would regard as grade school. Schooling just wasn't a priority.

Only after WWII did Japan recognize the need for highly educated students when they began to rebuild. Today, they have one of the higest literacy rates in the world.

Chez

Hmmm... perhaps your phrasing...

Japan for almost 100+ years can say that it has 99.99% of literacy (i.e. almost every Japanese can read and write).

But they lacked other education (apart from reading and writing - like technical knowledge).

Are you reffering to this when you say "literacy"?


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RE: Japanese pilot replacement at start pool

Post by witpqs »

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

I would agree with you for the most part....
From reading your post I think we are in total agreement. You might have interpreted my remarks as ranking things in absolute terms instead of in weighted terms.

At any rate the point I was making is that it's the maneuverability of the two a/c at the actual speeds (and of course altitude) they are fighting at that matters. If one a/c is faster than the other, the pilot will make every effort to use that to his advantage by taking as much control of the engagement as possible. This next statement is a bit silly, but just to illustrate the point: if maneuverability were more important than speed, then the older biplanes would rock.

I wanted to amplify the point that Mike Scholl made because I think some folks were placing agility way above speed in importance.

BTW, can you clue me in on 'zoom & boom' versus 'boom & zoom'?
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RE: Japanese pilot replacement at start pool

Post by ChezDaJez »

Yup, I'm sure.

I did some more research and found a couple of sites that indicate educational efforts began earlier than WWII so I will back off from my claim in that regard. However, the literacy rate was still very low

The Meiji goverment began to emphasize education during the 1870's however failed to provide funds for schools and teachers. It wasn't until the aftermath of WWI and Japan's resulting increase in industrial capacity that education began to be funded for elementary schools. However, no national education system was implemented until 1928.

Rural areas were left unfunded and had to develop their own educational system which resulted in less than 30% of the rural male population achieving an effective literacy rate by 1930. This was primarily due to farmers requiring their children's labor in the fields. Urban education efforts were somewhat better achieving an effective literacy rate of about 55% by 1935. Still, women did not exceed a 30% literacy rate in all areas until the late 1940's.

One thing to note is that Japanese education efforts were greater in Formosa and Korea than they were at home.

Effective literacy rate is that defined as the ability to read and write at a base level.

Chez
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RE: Japanese pilot replacement at start pool

Post by Nikademus »

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

Most early allied losses to Japanese fighters occurred because allied air forces had been trained to dogfight the same as the Japanese.

Chez

Disagree with you Chez? naaaaw [;)]

I will offer one teensy correction though. The Japanese naval pilots were not trained as dogfighters. They were trained very similar to the USN and did use energy tactics. Given the 'nature' of the Zero of course the Japanese were more than happy to oblige an enemy pilot who tried to get into a turning fight with them but many a times the pilots employed the bounce and sought advantage from altitude

Lundstrom does offer the opinion that the US defection shooting was better and that their training benefited from a focus on IGP (IGB?? away from source) tactics (Indiv gunnery practice) However he fudges this point to a degree in that he also states that the Japanese practiced deflection shooting and his books were filled with more than one example of excellent deflection shooting by the Japanese (includ w 20mm cannon) However he makes another point which you've already touched on that i think was the deciding factor...that point being that as a deflection shooting gunnery platform, the F4F edged the Zero...something i can relate personally.....take any decent flight simulator and try to do a deflection shot in a zero with the cannons or with an F4F with 4-6 50's.....its always easier for me in a F4F [:D]

As for Thach's comments. I tend to take them with a grain of salt. Both sides generally were not impressed with each other and their comments tended to be colored by it. (there were exceptions....Sakai's duel with a wildcat over Lunga earned the F4F pilot much praise.)
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RE: Japanese pilot replacement at start pool

Post by mogami »

Hi, I am amused somewhat by people who raise the pool levels because WITP does not provide training units. Would it not make more sense to leave the pools be and just add a few training units?
Design groups able to split into 3 sections that hold around 18 to 36 aircraft. Sending 6 to 12 aircraft to combat groups should be fine.
Count the number of active Sentai/Daitai (don't forget CV groups) and divide by 3 and insert that many training groups. (or more reasonable 1 training group for every 10 combat. 1 training for each typew with less then 10 combat)

Several points.
1. Japanese players who presently don't train pilots will still not train pilots (they will use these groups in combat)
2. Japanese players who presently train pilots will have more pilots then they can use. (not a bad thing for Japan )

I hope everyone understands my comments are only for PBEM games. I don't worry about what you do against the AI.
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RE: Japanese pilot replacement at start pool

Post by ChezDaJez »

BTW, can you clue me in on 'zoom & boom' versus 'boom & zoom'?

WitPqs:

"Boom and Zoom" is a tactic where the attacker either dives upon the defender or comes from behind at great speed, shoots and then executes a rapid climb before the defender can react.

"Zoom and Boom" refers to an attacker coming from below who shoots and then dives away. The problem with this tacitc is if you miss, the defender now has the altitude advantage and can either choose to depart the area or dive upon the attacker. Things can get hairy if he has buddies.

BTW, I agree we're in agreement. [:D]


Nik: Generally speaking, you fight by employing the advantages your machine relative to its opponents and try to minimize its disadvantages. I can't disagree with you that early IJNAF pilots were trained to use energy to their advantage however most of that advantage came from their turning and climbing ability. The Zero was a low energy machine when compared to allied types due to its lightweight. The Zero was well known for not being able to convert energy into speed as well as, say, a P-40. A common way to build energy was to convert altitude for airspeed, something US aircraft did much better than early-war Japanese aircraft.

As far as deflection shooting goes, Hiroyoshi Nishizawa who was a friend of Sakai, once told him that if he had been trained in deflection shooting in flight school, his score would have been much better as he had to learn it on the job. Henry Sakaida, in his book, "Rabaul" also wrote of 2 or 3 surviving pilots who related to him that their gunnery training was very deficient and they seldom scored hits during their first few engagements. Its been some years since I read this book and I don't have a copy of it so I can't quote it exactly. Anyways, I think they were not as good in deflection shooting on average as US pilots were.

But they lacked other education (apart from reading and writing - like technical knowledge).

Are you reffering to this when you say "literacy"?

Leo: In a way, yes. I probably should have said at more than a base literacy rate. There was still quite a discrepancy between rural areas and urban areas in this regard. US literacy rates for the same pre-war period hovered around 65-70% and had actually decreased somewhat during the Great Depression. My only sources are the internet in this but I believe (but can't prove) that US students were better educated year for year at that time and definitely had a better grasp of technical matters. Of course, now, it's just the opposite.

Different sites have different interpretations on what constitutes literacy. I regard effective literacy as being somewhere above the "See Dick and Jane run." level with a basic understanding of mathmatics. Basically, the level of literacy required in a general work environment.

Chez
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RE: Japanese pilot replacement at start pool

Post by the potemkin »

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

...The Japanese seldom modified their aircraft in the field to correct a deficiency or make an improvement. Can you name a Japanese aircraft that was modded in the field?...

The ki-45 and J1N1 was both modified in the field with weapons firing upward (and down for some J1N1)
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RE: Japanese pilot replacement at start pool

Post by Nikademus »

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

Nik: Generally speaking, you fight by employing the advantages your machine relative to its opponents and try to minimize its disadvantages. I can't disagree with you that early IJNAF pilots were trained to use energy to their advantage however most of that advantage came from their turning and climbing ability. The Zero was a low energy machine when compared to allied types due to its lightweight. The Zero was well known for not being able to convert energy into speed as well as, say, a P-40

Correct, the Heavier allied types (P40, F4F...even F2A) were all superior divers by vitue of their heavier weight. However being 'better' in discussions such as this thread tends to get translated (or converted) from "better" into "cant" which is where the discrepancy begins IMO. Lundstrom's references are full of descriptions of Zeros employing the bounce, utilizing altitude, speed as as well as agility to get the jump on their opponents. This most often expressed itself while the Zeros were escorting their charges and they were very effective at it.
As far as deflection shooting goes, <snip>

Sorry to snip ya.....just saving eye strain [;)] Its ironic. It appears that the issue Japanese ariel gunnery has some contradiction and controversy similar to that experienced with their air reconnesance arm. Some sources (Lundstrom/Piette) indicate that there were critics (including Japanese) who felt it was atrotious yet there were examples and opinions that indicated the opposite. It may be that if we focus on "training" that, as Lundstrom indicated the USN had an advantagae in emphasising the DS during gunnery practice while in the Japanese training program, less emphasis was placed 'but' this was made up for with operational and combat experience. (such as in China)

This sniplet from Sunburst would seem to support that theory as implied also in Lunstrom vol I:

"The coherence of the Shotai formation and the impressive gunnery runs acheived by the navy pilots who maintained it in the midst of the most violent aerial acrobatics are testimony that in the years immediately prior to the Pacific War, the navy's fighter squadrons were composed of highly disciplined aviators and enjoyed high unit cohesion. Their co-ordinated hit and run tactics [My italics] took them away from their natural inclination for dogfighting, [my italics] in which the pilots clung tenaciously, if unimaginatively to the tail of an enemy aircraft. Indeed so familiar with each other's combat tactics were the flyers in a three-man shotai that some navy pilots claimed to have developed almost a sixth sense.

Peattie, Sunburst

One other thing i read up on though while checking the above source was that the Navy did indeed as already metioned, not have enough pilots to fill all units at war's start and that in the Japanese own opinion, a good number of them were not sufficiently trained....the best went to the carrier groups, the land based naval units had to make due with what was left. This may also explain some of the inconsistancies....though groups like Tainen were also among the best formations that they posessed.

Again, we come down to trying to intrepet what the Japanese meant when they said "insufficiently trained" My mind is that given the expectations they had prewar...that veteran Japanese avaitors would consider even an exp "70" pilot "insufficiently" seasoned/trained when comparing them to themselves or their peers.

Getting back to the deflection shooting issue. Lundstrom states that the Japanese navy taught it's pilots deflection shooting but that they did not utilize it to it's best advantage as much as the USN did. He indicates that this lack of utilzation was at least partially if not primarily due to the technical nature of the Zero in comparison to the F4F. The Zero lacked sufficient visibility over the nose to support full deflection shots while the Wildcat did. (A japanese pilot trying a full deflection shot in a Zero would essentially be firing nearly blind, tracking the enemy by memory....a feat i'm sure only the very best Japanese pilots could acomplish)

Beyond that he indicates that the Zero was (ironically) not as well suited for the hit and run tactics employed though improvements were introduced in the form of the A6M3 and 5 variants which improved high speed control. The last point of course as i mentioned before....the 2x 7.7 2x 20mm armament proved to be not as kind to these same tactics as the 4x50 / 6x50 in the Wildcat.



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RE: Japanese pilot replacement at start pool

Post by Bombur »


I did some more research and found a couple of sites that indicate educational efforts began earlier than WWII so I will back off from my claim in that regard. However, the literacy rate was still very low

The Meiji goverment began to emphasize education during the 1870's however failed to provide funds for schools and teachers. It wasn't until the aftermath of WWI and Japan's resulting increase in industrial capacity that education began to be funded for elementary schools. However, no national education system was implemented until 1928.

Rural areas were left unfunded and had to develop their own educational system which resulted in less than 30% of the rural male population achieving an effective literacy rate by 1930. This was primarily due to farmers requiring their children's labor in the fields. Urban education efforts were somewhat better achieving an effective literacy rate of about 55% by 1935. Still, women did not exceed a 30% literacy rate in all areas until the late 1940's.

One thing to note is that Japanese education efforts were greater in Formosa and Korea than they were at home.

Effective literacy rate is that defined as the ability to read and write at a base level.

Chez

-I tend to agree with Leo. Japanese literacy rate was always impressive for that level of development. The estimates you´re mentioned are worse than pre 1917 Russia, whose educational levels were very poor.
-Made some research, and...

http://www.asianinfo.org/asianinfo/japa ... teracy.htm


Japan's literacy rate at the time of the collapse of the Tokugawa shogunate in 1868 is estimated at 40 percent, a level that compares favorably with many Western nations at the time. Without this educational foundation, the rapid modernization achieved in the following years would not have been possible.

http://www.thecorner.org/hists/japan/me ... ernization

By 1870, nearly half of the male population were literate. In fact, a historian says that Japan in 1870 "enjoyed one of the highest literacy rates of any non-industrial society".

At the same time, because of the national system of education, the rate of social literacy was raised. More people knew how to read and write. In 1912, the Japanese government claimed that 95% of its population was attending school.

However, literacy was in fact by no means nationwide: a survey of 22 factories in 1892 showed that about 1/3 of the workers had received no education at all. Yet there can be little doubt that there were more literate citizens.

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/get ... 0807kn.htm

The accumulation of adequate private capital and widespread elementary education at temple schools during the Edo Period contributed to the quick introduction of capitalism once the nation opened to the world. Public education achieved a literacy rate of almost 100 percent. Japan's postwar democratization was made possible by the solid foundation laid since the Meiji Era.

http://www.fpri.org/footnotes/087.20031 ... ation.html

Even before the 1868 Meiji Restoration that marked the beginning of Japan’s modern period, the Japanese were well educated by the standards of the time. In 1839 it had at least 300 private academies and approximately 3,000 terakoya, or temple schools. By the early nineteenth century Japanese literacy rates were comparable to those in the UK and the U.S. The Meiji oligarchs established Japan’s first national public school system in the early 1870s, creating centrally controlled schools where ordinary students would receive basic education while exceptional students could proceed to higher education and important positions in government and business.

-Notice that I couldn´t get statistics from early XX century, however, it´s unlikely that literacy rates failed to improve in an increasingly modern country.

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RE: Japanese pilot replacement at start pool

Post by Bombur »


The ki-45 and J1N1 was both modified in the field with weapons firing upward (and down for some J1N1)


-The Mavis too....
http://www.j-aircraft.com/research/stories/h6ksty.html



Measures were immediately taken to improve the defensive capability of the flying boats. The following conversions were made on the field.

1) Fuel tank protection : All fuel tanks were covered with rubber, and held together with wire net. (Hitsuji notes that American self-sealing tanks with the rubber inside the tank was much more effective, but that couldn't be done in the field.)

2) Improved defensive armament: Machine-guns on H6Ks were increased from one 20mm and seven 7.7mm to three 20mm (tail and waist) and five 7.7mm (front, dorsal, ventral, and fuselage sides).

3) Armor: 20mm armor plate behind the pilots' seat and 20mm shield at gunners' positions. However, Hitsuji notes that the armor behind the pilot was something of a mixed blessing. Since they didn't have bullet-proof glass, if the bullet came in from the front and hit the pilot , the bullet would not just pass through, but be deflected by the armor plate and tear the pilot's body apart.

4) Increased air to air gunnery training.

These conversions amounted to 1.5 tons in additional weight, but this did not affect speed and range performance.



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RE: Japanese pilot replacement at start pool

Post by ChezDaJez »

Their co-ordinated hit and run tactics [My italics] took them away from their natural inclination for dogfighting, [my italics] in <snip>

I think you and I are on the same page, just applying the nuances in different areas. Any pilot with an altitude advantage would be an idiot to just give it away. I think the major difference was that the IJNAF would not hesitate to enter a turning dogfight after their intial diving pass where American fighters extended their dive far to where they could either safely climb back to altitude to do it again or continue the dive to escape pursuers. The Zero (A6M2) became virtually unmaneuverable above 300mph and had a tendency to shed its wings at dive speeds over 350kts so the pilot had to be very careful not to exceed about 275mph in a dive. This was the primary reason why the A6M2 wasn't suited to boom and zoom tactics

I agree that the IJNAF excercised outstanding coordination and it recieved major emphasis before and early in the war when they were able to dictate the fight and it paid great dividends for them. But it fell off sharply after the disasterous air battles at Midway and the Solomons when many of their elite pilots were killed. The lack of radio equipment certainly didn't help maintain coordination either. Like you said, they were a well-oiled team early on but once some of the better players were permanently benched, the coordinated efforts fell apart.
Getting back to the deflection shooting issue. Lundstrom states that the Japanese navy taught it's pilots deflection shooting but that they did not utilize it to it's best advantage as much as the USN did. He indicates that this lack of utilzation was at least partially if not primarily due to the technical nature of the Zero in comparison to the F4F. The Zero lacked sufficient visibility over the nose to support full deflection shots...

I agree with that. I've read F4F pilots could watch a Zero's nose bob up and down as it attempted to line up a deflection shot as the pilot tried to maintain visual contact yet still get guns on target. They would wait until the Zero's nose bobbed up, then make a quick break when out of view.

One possibility I just thought of is that it may have been much easier in the A5M Claude using deflection shooting so its use was emphasized but after transitioning to the A6M series, it may have been emphasized much less. Don't know but it sounds good [:D].

The only problem with this is that most inline-engined aircraft had far worse visibility over the nose than the Zero and they (at least the allied ones) didn't seem to have a problem with it. The P-40 was especially bad because the cockpit was set further back than other inline aircraft. Yet the P-40 yielded many aces who were very good at deflection shooting. This may be the result of a Zero's inability to roll away above 250mph. The Corsair with its very long nose would have also posed the same problem. Interesting to note, that test pilots with F4F experience specifically asked that the F6F cowling be modified in production to give a better downward view over the nose. The result was a 22 degree decline vs the F4F 16 degree decline at the top of the cowling.

Anyways, We are pretty much in agreement, just emphasizing different minor points.

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RE: Japanese pilot replacement at start pool

Post by ChezDaJez »

Bombur,

Your web references certainly appear more factual than the ones I was using[:@]. Next time, I'll dig a little deeper before I open my big mouth.

Chez
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RE: Japanese pilot replacement at start pool

Post by ChezDaJez »

The ki-45 and J1N1 was both modified in the field with weapons firing upward (and down for some J1N1)

Sheeeesh, everybody jump on the bandwagon![:D]. Two mea culpas in one day!

Not a word of this to my wife... she already thinks I'm wrong 100% of the time and she don't need no more ammo!!!

(Don't even think about it, Nik!)

Chez
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RE: Japanese pilot replacement at start pool

Post by Brady »


ChezDaJez-


Thier is a lot in your post above that I do not agree with, much of which as been adreased already. Some that has not:

Your Comments about their Industry-

This is largely unfair, Japan had a well built industrail base by the time WW2 came about, their ship building was world class, and had been for a long time, a lot of whats in some of thse commnets while referanced is still ethnocentic at it core and just wrong.

Tony-

Much of what has been writen regarding the TOny in various works is, not well done, this quote from Buschels work on the Tony:

"The idiosyncrasies of the liquid-cooled Ha-40 which powered the Hien caused the aircraft to be dificult to handel on the ground because of the prevailing hot and damp weather but in the air the Ki-61-I was an outstanding aircraft liked by its piolets and respect by it's foes>"

4)- I did not mean to sugest they conducted these mishions on the scale the US did, but rather that they try and do such things, the impreshion is often that they did not.

"Most of those numbers ARE from Japanese sources attained during interrogation by USSBS personnel. As far as "Fire in the Sky" goes, I find it to be one of the most definitive and balanced accounts of the air war in the South Pacific and covers every topic from the men, the training, the aircraft, the tactics and the locale. If you have a better resource, I would like to read it."

Most if the data I have I have posted in the past, and it come from research done after the war, sources are given in my previous posts and are far more encoumpsing than a couple interviews, while I dont doub the sincerity of those interviewed, I would take all the enrolment records for the schols at the time and the cashaulity lists as being more difinative. I have read many posts by several people who considerd the above book to be not particulary good, and from the quotes I read from you above I beleave that to be true.

"Japanese training in all areas degraded throughout the war "

This is not realy true, as noted above, during 42 it was prety much the same, in 43 it was abrivated but only slightly in all terms, and the Numbers trained increased remarkabaly, in 44 it did suffer notable drops in total hours and as a result skill, in 45 it stoped alltogether.

I too am not looking for an argument but we clearly differ in regards to some points.


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RE: Japanese pilot replacement at start pool

Post by mogami »

Hi, Japanese industry no matter how good it might have been was still tiny compared to the USA. General Motors outproduced Japan. Of course the USA outproduced all ther Axis combined. The USA outproduced all the Axis and all the Allies (excepting USSR) combined. The USA gave away more equipment then any other nation (including USSR) produced. (USA ship building was more tonnage and required more material then any other nation consumed in WWII)

Japanese players who even contemplete winning a production war are suffering from delusions.


However Japan did not lose WWII because she ran out of weapons. She lost because she ran out of the logistical material required for them to continue to function.
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RE: Japanese pilot replacement at start pool

Post by Brady »



"Hi, Japanese industry no matter how good it might have been was still tiny compared to the USA"

I did not mean to sugest other wise, just to adress his coments from before.

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RE: Japanese pilot replacement at start pool

Post by Bombur »

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

Bombur,

Your web references certainly appear more factual than the ones I was using[:@]. Next time, I'll dig a little deeper before I open my big mouth.

Chez


-However, my references are not withouth troubles, as we lack data on progress made after the Meiji restoration. I also don´t know how Japanese would define literacy, as their writing system is a bit more complex than ours.
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RE: Japanese pilot replacement at start pool

Post by ChezDaJez »

"Japanese training in all areas degraded throughout the war "

This is not realy true, as noted above, during 42 it was prety much the same, in 43 it was abrivated but only slightly in all terms, and the Numbers trained increased remarkabaly, in 44 it did suffer notable drops in total hours and as a result skill, in 45 it stoped alltogether.

Increasing numbers does not mean it was maintaining quality. In fact, increasing numbers normally has the opposite effect of decreasing quality. Physical standards were relaxed to allow more trainees, especially after the air battles of 42. It was the quality of training that decreased throughout the war. I don't think anyone can argue that pilots trained in 1942 were not as well trained as those prior to Pearl Harbor.

As to pre-war Japanese industry, Japan was recognized as an industrialized nation after WWI and did have an excellent shipbuilding industry, much of it copied from British methods. They also had a fine optics industry, with technology obtained from Germany. Their aircraft industry produced some fine aircraft and powerplants. However, these and much of the other industry were very inefficient, especially in the utilization of manpower, when compared to other industrial nations. They had yet to implement the assembly line process to any great degree. Even common household items required more time to manufacturer than comparable articles in the US. In many important industrial fields, quantity and quality did not go hand-in-hand in Japan, it was one or the other. The US could provide both.

Mogami pointed out that US industrial capacity, with only twice the population, was 10 times that of Japan. Some of that can be tied to a lack of resources, however it is more likely tied to inefficient management, infrastructure and workforce.

Bottom line is that Japan's industry, while growing, was not as developed or as skilled as ours.

BTW, whereabouts in Oregon do you live?

Chez
Ret Navy AWCS (1972-1998)
VP-5, Jacksonville, Fl 1973-78
ASW Ops Center, Rota, Spain 1978-81
VP-40, Mt View, Ca 1981-87
Patrol Wing 10, Mt View, CA 1987-90
ASW Ops Center, Adak, Ak 1990-92
NRD Seattle 1992-96
VP-46, Whidbey Isl, Wa 1996-98
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ChezDaJez
Posts: 3293
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:08 am
Location: Chehalis, WA

RE: Japanese pilot replacement at start pool

Post by ChezDaJez »

how Japanese would define literacy, as their writing system is a bit more complex than ours.

I don't know either. Part of me wants to say that learning Kanji might be easier as it tends to be more graphical in nature but another part of me I'd rather keep my consonants and vowels.

Chez
Ret Navy AWCS (1972-1998)
VP-5, Jacksonville, Fl 1973-78
ASW Ops Center, Rota, Spain 1978-81
VP-40, Mt View, Ca 1981-87
Patrol Wing 10, Mt View, CA 1987-90
ASW Ops Center, Adak, Ak 1990-92
NRD Seattle 1992-96
VP-46, Whidbey Isl, Wa 1996-98
User avatar
Brady
Posts: 6084
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2002 12:48 pm
Location: Oregon,USA

RE: Japanese pilot replacement at start pool

Post by Brady »


"Increasing numbers does not mean it was maintaining quality. In fact, increasing numbers normally has the opposite effect of decreasing quality."

I agree, and this did happen, but In 1943 during the increase, the traing process was largely streamlind and the quality of the traing remained fairly high, not as insainly as prewar but by all acounts good.

"Physical standards were relaxed to allow more trainees, especially after the air battles of 42."

While this true, it is not realy that big a deal, the prewar standars were Strick to help keep enrolment down, and wead out all but the best. Good officers dident have to come from West Point for example or meat the critirea that one neaded to get in their, many good oficers were drafted, the same was true in Japan, many of the men who would never of been alowed to fly in the Japanese Navy or Army pre war, made ace.

"It was the quality of training that decreased throughout the war. I don't think anyone can argue that pilots trained in 1942 were not as well trained as those prior to Pearl Harbor"

This is realy very easy since the men trained in 1942 for the most part were the products of the prewar programe, whic had yet (mostly) been modofied to wartime standards.

"However, these and much of the other industry were very inefficient, especially in the utilization of manpower, when compared to other industrial nations. They had yet to implement the assembly line process to any great degree."

This is part not true and a best an oversimplifacation, many plants used asembly line's to build the weapons of war, including ships, seveal shipyards building War time merchants (largely absent from WiTP, another peave of mine) increased their productivity by stagering amounts during the war. The scale may not of been on a par with the US but the acheavemts were non the less remarkable.

...........

Dundee.




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