The Italian Job (2) - Comments from the Allies

[AmiralLaurent]

I think the game needs some things to reduce the level of aerial activity to a logical level:

1) trash this stupid rule that says that any base with 250+ air support squads may support any number of AC. If your land army is needing 2000 support points, you need them. If you have 2000 aircraft in a base, you should need 2000 air support points too.

2) limit the size of raids launched from a given AF to 15 AC per AF point. And the CAP provided at one time to 10 aircraft per point too. 500 AC can't effectively take off and gather from a tiny AF.
In this model, if we have for example the AVG (50 P-40) and 2 Blenheim Sqns (30 bombers) in Akyab (size 3) and 2 Zero Daitais (50 Zeroes) in Mytkyina (size 2). All Allied AC have offensive orders, all Zeroes are on CAP.
Max size raid of Akyab is 45 (15 * 3), so two raids will be made, one by each Blenheim squadron, each escorted by around 25 P-40. They won't meet each time 50 Zeroes but 20 (10 * 2). And not the same for both raids.
So rather than one heavy air battle, a serious air offensive will see a succession of small to medium raids hit the same target and a row of small air battles (that WITP engine handles far better than big air battles).

For the night raids the same apply but in this case the raid will be reduced to 5 AC per AF point and only one raid may be launched for any base. So night raids will always remain small. The number given is the number taking off so it will be reduced then by the current limitations, planes getting lost and so on.

3) link the level of support needed to the number of engines of the aircraft.

4) bomber and torpedo units should be able to use normal load only if a BF of the good type (IJNAF fo Betties, USAAF for B-17, USN for Avengers) is on the airfield. To be precise each aviation support point of the good type should support one aircraft.

[mc3744]

ORIGINAL: AmiralLaurent
So rather than one heavy air battle, a serious air offensive will see a succession of small to medium raids hit the same target and a row of small air battles (that WITP engine handles far better than big air battles).

Hello Admiral [:)]
An honor to have you in my AAR [8D] (I mean it, I really love your strategic evaluations in the forum, I seldom have time to post myself - beside the AAR - but I read)

I totally concur with your evaluation and particularly with the above statement.

I do however believe that your system, albeit very reasonable it's a bit complicated and would require much more time for each single turn to plan and count. Which I don't have [:(] and maybe other players don't either.

However sticking to the simple rule of size*50 seems to work quite well in my other games.
Air battles are more frequent and smaller in the number of planes involved, Japan is still predominant in most areas, but there's more equilibrium. Also you need to invest supplies and engineers to build up airfileds at a good pace.
Truth be told, I'm biased by the fact that I'm doing way better in all my other games (without FDC) hence I obviously tend to prefer the other system [;)], still it seems my opponents are enjoying as well, while I can't really say that I'm enjoying this match.

After my 'morale break-down' [:'(] and the support received by GH on the force concetration (I read a few comments in the AAR on the match, when I was giving up) I went back to some of my opponents to ask if they wanted to skip the airfiled stacking rule (which I proposed in the first place) since it seemed the forum does like the massing, but they all wanted to keep it.
I honestly believe that huge concetrations are not realistic and not handled propoerly by the game engine.

Night bombing.
I have no info on reality. Hence I bowed to the forum expert opinion.
However its impact, even with 4E, it's not so relevant in the game, unless you bring it to the extreme (as I did). And even in my case I probaly gained approx. 1.000 points (minus op losses) in 4-5 months.
Not game altering, as Australia proved. He wanted to keep Daly, he could, night bombing notwithstanding.

[AmiralLaurent]

Hi, mc,

I am a regular reader of both your and GH's AAR, so I make no strategic comment because I know both point of view.

I don't think my system will need more calculations from players. Now 200 AC will fly together and meet 100 AC on CAP. In my system the same will be true, except that instead of one battle there will be several far more realistic. I hate the fact that each flying unit in UV or WITP is meeting every enemy air unit on the hex.

[mc3744]

Hello Admiral

If I understood correctly you are not suggesting a house rule, but rather a change in the game system.
Is that so?

I'm glad you read the AAR [:)], fair enough you don't comment.

[Tom Hunter]

mc3744

I was not ignoring your question, just had not checked your AAR until now. By the way I am not really pro-Hoepner, I just comment on the effectiveness of peoples strategy as I see it. I am also biased in favor of bloody strategies, and you seem fairly catious. Time will tell if caution is the way to go. I will readily admit that I have no way of judging success of a long term plan in the short term.

As to the "Afraid" comment I look at big airraids that Blackwatch launched in our games, and at the major raids I have organized in my games. It is very possible for either side to mass the planes needed to pound an airfield to rubble in a very short period, trapping the planes and then attritting them away to nothing.

Early in the war the Japanese have an advantage in this, because thier twin engine planes can use the smaller airbases more effectively that the Allied 4 engine planes. One of the things that suprises me about Gen Hoepner is the way he fights your 4 engine planes. He sends fighters to CAP his own bases, but does nothing against your bases. In a case like that I would mass 200 or so Japanese bombers and hit back at the Allies during daylight when the night bombers are lined up on the tarmac.

I like to have my planes spread out because I am afraid of the massive strike gaining control of the air. If I am using 2-4 mutually supporting bases then the enemy cannot really shut me down. But if I have just one base I can get murdered.

A good example comes from the Fear and Loathing game. When we were evacuating Malaya we sent 230 bombers to Batvia an L4 airfield. We started off smashing the Japanese airfield at Mersing, then Kuantan to cover our fleets. It worked we blew up a lot of planes and shut down the bomber forces there. But within days we had 100 planes stuck on the ground at Batavia. It took us weeks to get them all out. If the Japanese had sent 200-300 planes after Batvia we would have been in big trouble. The only reason it was worth the risk was getting the army out.

[mc3744]

I had the same fear, but looking at GH's way of handling airfileds it looks like the stronger one can forget about this problem.

He has some 500 bombers plus around 200 fighters in one single airport. He bombs where I have no air protection and still manages to get a CAP 150 strong of fighter, which is impassable by my 4E's without escort.

Also if you are stronger over one airfiled you can slowly hit them all.
If he manages to win over Ledo, he can then switches to Dimapur and Imphal.
While if I mass all my fighters in one airfiled I doubt he can get past the CAP.

Yes, I guess I'm cautios [:'(]
I rather think of it as 'suicide adverse' [:D]

If you look back you'll see that I tried to fight, like in Timor. But there's no fighting with FCD. The stronger wins, end of story.
Hence I'm waiting to gain the upper edge. What can I do differently?
Plus I lost 6 months in Central Australia only to discover it's impossible to counter-attack due to the supply rules.
I would have starting preparing for New Guinea in April, now it's September and I'm only starting.

Thanks for the feed back [:)]

[Tom Hunter]

I'm really not sure what you can do different. Are you playing CHS? or just the map mod? The CHS thread about Allies getting screwed in the air was very interesting, and there was an earlier thread where Jim Burns (I think) and I compared aircraft numbers, Allies Vs. Japan.

I was amazed to learn that the Japanese outproduce the Allies in aircraft if the game is played with PDU. So husbanding your resources can make some sense.

Personally I would be pushing harder in the South Pacific, but that is more of a personality issue than a "correct strategy" issue. And I agree that the Australian supply thing does set you off balance, and I don't think anyone realized that the revised map had that effect until it showed up in your game.

[jwilkerson]

Allied player can be beaten - as you know - you've suffered that once - though you changed your mind and decided you weren't beaten after all !!

But allied side cannot really be beaten - yes VP win for Japanese maybe - but if play were to continue - Allies would still destroy Japan eventually.

It is obviously too late to fight a bloodier opening for the Allies since the opening is over. But at this point I think you might consider a point made by Liddel Hart. That concentrating on one line of attack will strengthen the defense.

Japan has "interior lines" ... if you consider all possible avenues of counterattack for Allies.

1. Aleutians.
2. Marshall/Gilbert.
3. Solomon/Bismarck/Papua.
4. Timor/Kai/Ceram/Celebes/Bornea etc. etc.
5. China
6. Burma.
7. Andaman/Summatra/Malaya

So you have maybe 7 lines along which you can counter attack. Point I'm try to make is - try to find a way to counterattack on as many of these lines as possible. This will spread out the defense. He can probably be strong in one of these places. Maybe in two of them though not in all dimensions ( a dimension being like Carriers, Surface, Landbased air ... these three are his primary strike weapons ).

You will soon have more overall combat power than he - but if you try to funnell all that combat power down one narrow thrust - he may be able to concentrate sufficiently to defeat it. However, if you can attack along 3 or more lines - then it is doubtful. Yes you will take some losses - but advancing and keeping him off balance and beginning to gain some initiative will change the complection of everything.

So by attacking along multple lines you will be able to bring more of your greater combat power to bear across a wider portion of the front - and will be able to gain local superiority in at least some of these places - and you will be able to advance in these places.

If he shifts his defensive strength - then that will open up another alternative attack route for you. Remain flexible and ready to reinforce success.

Anyway, just some thoughts - thus far I have been playing only Japanese ( I'm right around 2000 turns PBEM completed ) but I am describing the type of Allied counterattack that would worry me. A single powerful thrust - worries me the least.

Good luck !

[mc3744]

September 29th, 1942

I just noticed I posted the last two summaries as November! Wishful thinking? [:D]

We are not playing CHS, only Andrew’s (beautiful) Map Mod.
You still get the Japs overpowering the Allies on the production side.
(125) B-24D
(40) B-17
(5) LB-30
(75) P-38
That’s what you can use attacking (after October), you may want to throw in another (30) Wellington.
There’s a lot of B-25 and F4F, but the B-25 must be escorted and the F4F hasn’t got the legs, it’s only ‘good’ defending.
If I could see GH production I’d bet that the combined production of Tojo, Tony and Zero is close to 400-500. Then you have the LBs, probably another 2-300. Not counting DB and G3/4M.

I’ll soon be facing a dilemma. Will I upgrade my IBC high exp squadrons to P-38 or should I use those for NG and SOPAC?
If I upgrade the AVG and the 18th FG I get (144) P-38 with 75-82 exp to escort some 200+ heavies. Maybe I can hurt him. Still there would be no strategic gain, only points.
On the other hand, in NG and SOPAC I could use them to aid in regaining some ground, but they’d be wasted on low exp squadrons.
I really don’t know.

IBC
Chungking is still at 20k.
I have only few fighter squadrons still training, and they are already 75+, all the rest is 80+ exp.

AUSTRALIA – NG - NZ
(5) Divisions will soon be in Townsville.
(123) combat vessels are leaving Sidney for Townsville. Right now I feel like rushing the attack on PM.
Recon reports only some 4-6k men.
If I upgrade (24) P-38 I’d get a CAP of (198) F4F and (24) P-38, it may be enough to avoid a slaughter and to land in PM. If I can grab it fast I can bring in P-40s.
I’m not sure. I still have to make sure I have enough transports, I’m massing them in Townsville, but they may not be enough.
Also jw consideration on multiple attacks makes much sense. I’ve been writing more than once that I should attack on multiple fronts. Still I feel now he is not so strong in NG and maybe a powerful thrust could work without too many losses.
Anyway jw's suggestion is real good I must keep it in mind. Thanks. [&o]

PACIFIC
No news.

[String]

ORIGINAL: mc3744



I’ll soon be facing a dilemma. Will I upgrade my IBC high exp squadrons to P-38 or should I use those for NG and SOPAC?
If I upgrade the AVG and the 18th FG I get (144) P-38 with 75-82 exp to escort some 200+ heavies. Maybe I can hurt him. Still there would be no strategic gain, only points.
On the other hand, in NG and SOPAC I could use them to aid in regaining some ground, but they’d be wasted on low exp squadrons.
I really don’t know.

I'd say upgrade only one squadron in india, with 75+ exp it will be enough for your limited needs there.

edit: Oh and watch it, you can only LRCAP within normal range.

[Tom Hunter]

Just figuring out how to get your airforce into combat is a really big problem for the Allied player.

A good part of my decisions about basing and what theater to push in are made because of the range of Allied fighter aircraft. It is also one of the reasons the South Pacific is so important, the bases are close together.

I realize that Japan has problems all its own, but playing the Allies well is really difficult too. The difference is that you can play the Allies badly and still play, but if you play the Japanese badly you get smacked.

[mc3744]

Right, what's the normal range for P-38? [;)]

Yes, playing the Japs badly doesn't work at all.

[mc3744]

September 30th, 1942

IBC
I’m reloading the carrier’s squadrons and upgrading them to Seafire’s.
I’m also starting to bomb Port Blair. I think I’ll use an invasion on Port Blair as a diversion from PM. I should have more diversions, but I’m not ready for that yet.
Probably I will not engage the carriers, Port Blair is too close to tons of LBA’s. Right now I think I’ll use a (25) ships Fast Transport after some days of air bombings with the heavies.
I’ll keep the carriers a bit out to try to distract some of his CVs to the area.
I’m evacuating Dimapur and concentrating the fighter force in Imphal and Ledo.
Chungking is now at 21k supplies. Very slowly it keeps rising. I may be able to hold onto Chungking for a very long time.

AUSTRALIA – NG – NZ
Eventually my heavies decided to take off. They’ve been on airfield attack for the past three days, but they were feeling a bit tired and decided to take a vacation! [8|]
The attack has been moderately successful, 20:38. (20) of my planes lost in air-to-air, (33) of his on the ground.
I’ve moved another (48) B-17’s in Alice for a second round over Daly. I’m hoping to destroy some of the damaged ones. That is if my pilots feel like flying, of course. Wouldn’t wanna force them. [:-] [:D]

----------------

Bombing Daly

[mc3744]

October 1st, 1942

The month of the P-38 Lightning, what an achievement!! [8D]

IBC
Unlucky once again with the British withdrawal. Last month CV + 2 DD, I kept the CV. This month BB + 2 DD, I’ll keep the DDs, the Resolution will go back to GB. I’m now at -180 PP. Four days to recover.
In Karachi has arrived the 221 RAF HQ, which was destroyed in Tsuyung. Soon (within a week) several Chinese units will also be available in Karachi. Thanks to Andy. [:)]
All CVs are now fully loaded with Seafire’s and Swordfish’s.
Dimapur has been vacated and the air fighting force is now concentrated in Ledo and Imphal. Some reserve fighter squadrons are in Chandpur.
Bad weather prevented the first bombing of Port Blair.
Over Kunming there’s always a CAP of 40-70 Tony’s. If I upgrade the entire AVG to P-38 I could sweep over the airfield and enjoy some dog fighting. Just as thought.

AUSTRALIA – NG – NZ
Second bombing raid over Daly, despite a slightly stronger CAP (a Tojo’s Daitai has been added) the results have been quite good, 17:36 (5 air – 31 ground).
Recon reports airfield damage at (67). I’ll keep bombing, maybe I can shut it down temporarily and finish off the grounded planes. The exchange rate is not great, but acceptable.
I’m out of LB-30’s in the pool (only 5 replacements per month), I’ll have to upgrade a squadron but I’m currently too short on B-17 and B-24D because I’ve recently upgraded (192) medium bombers in DH and PH.
In Townsville there are now (17) AP’s and Cooktown building goes fast, in two weeks it has gone to port (3) and airfield (4).

NOPAC
I’m sending dozens of subs to mine Japan’s ports from Attu.
So far one hit on a DD.

--------------

A new toy [:D]

[mc3744]

October 2nd, 1942

IBC
(5) Chinese divisions, (3) Base Forces and (2) HQs are now in Karachi, all at 1/3 strength.
I’ll leave them there to recover. They’ll be very useful in the future.

AUSTRALIA – NZ – NG
The third bombing raid over Daly scored quite well, 12:56 (4-52).
Most of the Jap fighters were damaged and did not take off. It’s been a good three days, retribution for the Exmouth ambush.
No more planes in Daly and probably a LRCAP from Darwin, hence I’m now recovering the heavies. Their next target will be PM.
Recon over PM now reports (9) units but only 3.500 men!?! [&:]

[Speedysteve]

Wouldn't trust your recon bud.

In my game vs swift I have had 'wonky' intel.

At Wake it said he had 68,000 troops in fact he had 40,000.

At PM it said he had 7 units where as he only had 5.

My theory is always take more than you may need at least you will take the place rather than losing a ton of men.

Regards,

Steven

[AmiralLaurent]

ORIGINAL: mc3744

Hello Admiral

If I understood correctly you are not suggesting a house rule, but rather a change in the game system.
Is that so?

I'm glad you read the AAR [:)], fair enough you don't comment.

Yes, sorry, I was speaking of a game change, no house rule can correct the air system, as no house rule can correct the fact that the land model is even worse. As soon as I win the lotery I will write WITP II... and WWII (why just limiting ourselves to some thousands of ships and hundred of divisions when you can have ten times more).

Anyway WITP is the best game I ever played. But it isn't historical at all and that is a pity.

By the way, and totally off topic, I'm studying WWII (as a hobby) and I found a list of Italian casualties with the following abbrevations for the fate of people : C ( = caduti ), D ( = dispersi), F ( = feriti), IN (?), B (?) and M (?). What may be the meaning of the last 3 ones ? I may read Italian but not well enough to imagine that.

[mc3744]

October 14th, 1942

Sorry Admiral for the delay. I’ve been trying to think of something for the abbreviations. The only idea is about (IN) it could be Incapacitato (= Incapacitated), but it’s not a very common word in Italian.

IBC
I’ve upgraded my best unit to P-38’s. It’s an AVG section with (82) experience and my top ace. I have a plan forming up. I’ll discuss the details later on, in a couple of weeks.
Chungking is now at 23k supplies.

AUSTRALIA – NG – NZ
The Long Island is moving into the Indian Pond hoping to catch some AV’s. Found a sub. When I went with ASW TF’s I found AV’s, now that I go with a CVE I find subs. [:(]
I tried placing a sub screen line from Gili Gili to the East, the subs have been attacked by countless Jap planes. I’m withdrawing them.
The High Command has ordered radio silence for the operation preparing in Australia. I won’t be able to discuss the details. However troops, ships and planes are massing.

PACIFIC
All quiet.

[mc3744]

October 18th, 1942

IBC
In a couple of turn I’ll ambush Jap planes over China.
Chunking, Sining and Lanchow bombings are always unescorted, at least they’ve been so for more than a month.
Over Lanchow however only fighters are bombing: training runs. Hence the airfield is 100% operational. AS is at (40), enough for what I have in mind.
Soon the AVG equipped with P-38 will be ready. I’ll move into Lanchow (24) P-38’s, (24) P-40E’s and (16) Kitty’s.
The P-38 will LRCAP over Chungking, the Kitty’s over Sining and the P-40E’s will engage the training fighters over Lanchow. At the end of the day they’ll retreat back to Ledo.

AUSTRALIA – NG – NZ
Dutch pilots are getting back in shape. The first Brewster's squadron has hit (80) exp. I’ll use the Mog system, since the Dutch pilots are like the Jap ones. No replacements and I’ll disband smaller units into bigger ones.
Operation “Sealed lips” continues , I’m getting really nervous.
PM shows an increase of movement and troops.

PACIFIC
In SOPAC I upgraded a squadron of P-39 to P-38.

[mc3744]

October 19th, 1942

Bad luck strikes again. [:(]
The weather was clear everywhere in China (I carefully checked the forecast yesterday). For weeks Chungking, Lanchow and Sining have been bombed daily and without escort.
Today no bombers over Chungking or Sining and escort over Chungking for one squadron of DB and LRCAP and escort over Lanchow. Only (14) Tony's came, and not the usual 44+.
I still managed some kills, but nothing relevant.

I feel this AAR is bringing me bad luck.
I go for Tongarapu, just two weeks later he comes for it, I go with ASW TFs I find AV's, I go with CVE I find subs, I ambush the most regular raids I've had in months and the bombers are resting and I find escort. [X(] [:-]
I want to move for PM and he starts building up. Not to mention the follow all bug or the supply/distance rule in Australia.
I had good luck over Daly, but by chance I forgot to mention in the AAR about the strike.
I'm always one step behind. I'm too predictable and I've got some curse. [:@]

I think it's the AAR bringing me bad luck. From now on I will only comment on the past.