It is easy for Japanese PBEM Player to get 4 to 1 AV 0n 1 Jan 43?

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RE: It is easy for Japanese PBEM Player to get 4 to 1 AV 0n 1 Jan 43?

Post by rtrapasso »

ORIGINAL: Tom Hunter

I suspect that Moses is onto something, and I think (hope actually) that Mogami has figured the same thing out and is trying it in the Lunacy games.

It is possible that my counter strategy will work and Mog will not get his 4 to 1, we will know in a year or two.

A lot faster than that. You guys started in mid-September, and some of the Lunacy games are getting to March 1942, i think. So, at least some of the games are going at almost 2:1 vs. calendar time. Could get initial results in a couple/three months for one or two of the Lunacy games.
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RE: It is easy for Japanese PBEM Player to get 4 to 1 AV 0n 1 Jan 43?

Post by moses »

I like the auto-victory as it adds to the excitment and forces the allies to defend something. I just wish a few tweaks could be made to slow down the attacker.

But now that I seem to have weathered the storm in my current game we'll see if those advantages work in reverse.

BTW all my comments apply to an historical game start. But playing, as in the Lunacy games, someone like Mogami with the stated goal of a all exploits OK game. Good God!!! Some people are just gluttons for punishment.[:D][:D]
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RE: It is easy for Japanese PBEM Player to get 4 to 1 AV 0n 1 Jan 43?

Post by Wolfie1 »

I think that the Japanese have to have a "perfect" game to get the 4:1, as Allies in two PBEM games I've had one or two lucky hits (sinking Kaga/Haruna, mugging an invasion TF with Force Z) and the points I got from them I think will help me safely avoid the AV.
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RE: It is easy for Japanese PBEM Player to get 4 to 1 AV 0n 1 Jan 43?

Post by Oleg Mastruko »

ORIGINAL: String

It's doable. From 21st of march 1943, a PBEM game.

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So this game was over when you clicked End turn, yes?

Can you post the map screenshot?

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RE: It is easy for Japanese PBEM Player to get 4 to 1 AV 0n 1 Jan 43?

Post by ADavidB »

Sit on ones butt and do nothing causes VP for lost territory to increase and startegic intiative suffers further...on and on...thereby forcing the "Sir Robin" types into the fray.

Ron - the only problem with this approach is that there is so little that an Allied player can really do against a determined and skilled Japanese player during the first six months of the game. Being forced "into the fray" will mean that the Allied player will simply lose more early and increase the odds of an autovictory.

Let me suggest a twist on your idea - give the Japanese player "bonus" victory points for grabbing and garrisoning key strategic positions early on. The earlier the grab and the bigger the garrison, the more points. This will force the Japanese player to take more chances rather than simply build a combined forces Death Star and chomp along at will with multi-divisional invasions backed by 10 carriers.

Cheers -

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RE: It is easy for Japanese PBEM Player to get 4 to 1 AV 0n 1 Jan 43?

Post by mc3744 »

First of all I have to admit that I have little experience with the Japs.

I do however believe that the 4:1 may be achieved by conquering the whole Central Pacific, but for PH.
If you attack Central Pacific early on, you can stop the flow of troops, ships, planes and supplies to Australia, NG, NZ and DEI.
Therefore making the life easier to finish off the remaining strongholds.
This way you strongly reduce the attrition, which plays against the Japs, because the Allies have little to fight with.
In the Pacific they are powerless in '42. They can't face G3/4M + Zero's + KB.
While in Australia and South Pacific they can use LBA.
At least this is the strategy I fear most as Allied player.

I have one game only as Japan, it's late march '42 (pretty early I know) and I still have to conquer Java, Borneo and Eastern China.
But the Pacific is almost all mine (only Canton and Pago Pago still missing) and the score so far is 16k:3k.
Although my opponent is not very experienced, he hasn't made any serious mistake so far, but for loosing the Enterprise.

I really think that closing down the Pacific early on is the key.

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RE: It is easy for Japanese PBEM Player to get 4 to 1 AV 0n 1 Jan 43?

Post by ADavidB »

But the Pacific is almost all mine (only Canton and Pago Pago still missing) and the score so far is 16k:3k.
Although my opponent is not very experienced, he hasn't made any serious mistake so far, but for loosing the Enterprise.

You picked up so many points from the Pacific Islands? Did you opponent partially garrison islands before you captured them? Can you post an intelligence screen so that we can see where you've grabbed your points?

Thanks -

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RE: It is easy for Japanese PBEM Player to get 4 to 1 AV 0n 1 Jan 43?

Post by String »

Noumea is the key. It gives 1000+ points to the allies, meaning it's worth 4k+ to the japs
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RE: It is easy for Japanese PBEM Player to get 4 to 1 AV 0n 1 Jan 43?

Post by jwilkerson »

ORIGINAL: mc3744

First of all I have to admit that I have little experience with the Japs.

I do however believe that the 4:1 may be achieved by conquering the whole Central Pacific, but for PH.
If you attack Central Pacific early on, you can stop the flow of troops, ships, planes and supplies to Australia, NG, NZ and DEI.
Therefore making the life easier to finish off the remaining strongholds.
This way you strongly reduce the attrition, which plays against the Japs, because the Allies have little to fight with.
In the Pacific they are powerless in '42. They can't face G3/4M + Zero's + KB.
While in Australia and South Pacific they can use LBA.
At least this is the strategy I fear most as Allied player.

I have one game only as Japan, it's late march '42 (pretty early I know) and I still have to conquer Java, Borneo and Eastern China.
But the Pacific is almost all mine (only Canton and Pago Pago still missing) and the score so far is 16k:3k.
Although my opponent is not very experienced, he hasn't made any serious mistake so far, but for loosing the Enterprise.

I really think that closing down the Pacific early on is the key.


And I get to counter that I have little experience playing the allies ...

But, can the Japanese do as you suggest - and still secure the SRA ?

If I am the Allies and the Japanese pile everything into one corner of the map .. I'm gonna try to go crazy in another corner. You can't both keep KB concentrated and have it in 2 places at once !!!
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RE: It is easy for Japanese PBEM Player to get 4 to 1 AV 0n 1 Jan 43?

Post by Sneer »

by the end of february good player is ready to move all Southern area troops to India
it means that by the end of Feb Japan has PI+Malaya+Java + resource base in borneo and sumatra
my PBEM enemy noticed 8 inf div + 10 arm rgt in early march taking his ports in east india.
any ideas how to defend india so early ?
no as i think cos there is no way
that's all - of course you ca use this force in china or in russia
no matter where it gives full advantage on the theater and needed points.
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RE: It is easy for Japanese PBEM Player to get 4 to 1 AV 0n 1 Jan 43?

Post by moses »

The real problem is even with KB on the other side of the map what can the allies do?? Will you mount a counterinvasion somewhere? First the betties are very lethal early on. One hit on your carrier and your in real trouble. Plus say you retake Wake or something. Its not worth much and now you have a division sitting where it can be isolated and easily destroyed whenever KB decides to stop over and chase you away.

Plus for the early part of the game you hardly need KB. Just island hop within range of your massively superior land based air force. There is nothing in the SRA that can stop you. So you take your time, take no or very few risks and its not hard to clear everything by end of March.

After that you decide on which high value invasion to pursue. You have at least nine more months to take care of business.

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RE: It is easy for Japanese PBEM Player to get 4 to 1 AV 0n 1 Jan 43?

Post by Ron Saueracker »

ORIGINAL: ADavidB
Sit on ones butt and do nothing causes VP for lost territory to increase and startegic intiative suffers further...on and on...thereby forcing the "Sir Robin" types into the fray.

Ron - the only problem with this approach is that there is so little that an Allied player can really do against a determined and skilled Japanese player during the first six months of the game. Being forced "into the fray" will mean that the Allied player will simply lose more early and increase the odds of an autovictory.

Let me suggest a twist on your idea - give the Japanese player "bonus" victory points for grabbing and garrisoning key strategic positions early on. The earlier the grab and the bigger the garrison, the more points. This will force the Japanese player to take more chances rather than simply build a combined forces Death Star and chomp along at will with multi-divisional invasions backed by 10 carriers.

Cheers -

Dave Baranyi
Ron - the only problem with this approach is that there is so little that an Allied player can really do against a determined and skilled Japanese player during the first six months of the game. Being forced "into th

I guess I have too add a caveat to my this approach. Fix some of the glaring issues with the combat and logistics models so that the Allies can engage without loosing everytime. If the Air 2 Air, CAP and Coordination issues were made even somewhat conceivable KB would not be the DeathStar it currently is, the Fast Carrier TFs the USN weilds from 43 on would be less so, and LBA would be reined in as a consequence.. If the logistics were tweaked the ahistorically abundant shipping, supply and aircraft would not be available and the fast-food-esque drive through rearm and refuel capability of major warships would not exist. All this has been harped about before as it distorts the very fabric of the game period, but if it were done then using various factors to control the VP values through strategic/political modifiers should conceivably work.
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RE: It is easy for Japanese PBEM Player to get 4 to 1 AV 0n 1 Jan 43?

Post by mc3744 »

The Intel screen as requested.

You don't need the KB if you have Palmyra, Wake, Fiji and Noumea (and Canton to come).
G3/4M + Zero's will do the job. The F4F are no match for the Zero's, especially trained ones. I have no flying Daitai below 80 exp.
You only leave alone Johnston or you get in deep *#é&% because of the heavies from PH.

I'm betting that within three weeks the Southern half of Borneo and Java will be mine. Timor and Kendari already are.
As Western China, PI, Burma, Sumatra, part of the Aleutines, NG and Solomons.
By half April I'll have my entire army ready for something else. My opponent is reading, I cannot talk too much [;)]

I started going for Palembang only in early March, he could not take away anything because of G3/4M in Singapore and Kuching. I found 200k of oil waiting for me. And I still have to take Tarakan, but I'm going to find everything there [:)]

And with Kendari and Timor you cut the Southern way.
If he tries to go real South in the Pacific to get to NZ he risks to find a KB with no chance of recon, while I have the Glen's and AV's.

At least this is my 'Insideout strategy': first the perimeter, then you finish off the isolated center. Time will tell if it works.

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RE: It is easy for Japanese PBEM Player to get 4 to 1 AV 0n 1 Jan 43?

Post by jwilkerson »

Any actual game - not just "analysis" should involve the Allies continuously looking for opportunities.

Betty's ( land based anti-shipping planes ) in conjunction with Land based Zeros offer one powerful dimension.
KB another
6+ BB IJN surface action group a third.

One of these is easier to counter than 2 which is easier than all three. Three of them can be in three different places - 2 can be together with the third somewhere else - or all three can be together. The Allied player obviously needs to keep careful watch on where these creatures are, with actually the Betty/Zero being the most mobile ( provided the airbase infrastructures are in the needed places ! ).

What the Allies do - depends on what the Japanese do - but one thing the Allies are looking for is attacking the Japanese initiative. If KB has to "swing by" somewhere it wasn't planning on swinging by - then the Allies are making progress. Obviously the Allies need to avoid lop sided VP exchanges - but part of Allied day by day planning is looking for Japanese vulnerabilities and also freshly examining their own - so they can be avoided. So if I take back a place - I may evacuate the Division and leave a smaller garrison - still forcing an opposed invasion but trying to avoid dumping a division down the tubes. If KB jumps me right away - then my plan was flawed as I didn't really know where they were - probably a prequisite for doing my invasion in the first place.

The Allies have weapons - as long as they are applied when and were they can be effective. Tom even advocates for a heavy "attrition" strategy - though sometimes it appears that he attrites himself a little more than he wanted to ( like the recent battle off Noumea against Mog ) but you can't try that strategy without taking some hits - see also GH's attempt off Soerabaja. But certainly a "surgical" application of the 4EB force, as well as Cruiser/Destroyer Surface Groups and even the Allied Carriers can be effective if they are used in areas where the Japanese are not at their strongest.

There may be a "magic" victory formula for the Japanese - such as Sneer suggests - but in my historical reading and 30 years of gaming, I'd have to say they are rare enough - that I'll still bet against there being one in WITP. Maybe a "fools mate" or two. But a (n almost) guaranteed victory plan - that stands up to repeated play between equal experienced players - I still doubt it.

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RE: It is easy for Japanese PBEM Player to get 4 to 1 AV 0n 1 Jan 43?

Post by ADavidB »

The Intel screen as requested.

Okay - thanks! So your lead is both "real estate" and troops.

I notice "funny colors" on the map - is this one of the customized maps or customized scenarios? Also, did you do a historic start or a non-historic start?

Thanks again -

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RE: It is easy for Japanese PBEM Player to get 4 to 1 AV 0n 1 Jan 43?

Post by mc3744 »

It's stock scenario 15 with the beautiful Subchaser's Map.

Non historical first turn. Std house rules. No new TF, no air transfer, one port hit.
I went for Singapore and not for PH and I sank the Force Z.
I only went for PH's airfield, I then waited for the BBs to come out and I hit and sank (some of) them in open sea. [;)]
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RE: It is easy for Japanese PBEM Player to get 4 to 1 AV 0n 1 Jan 43?

Post by moses »

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson


What the Allies do - depends on what the Japanese do - but one thing the Allies are looking for is attacking the Japanese initiative. If KB has to "swing by" somewhere it wasn't planning on swinging by - then the Allies are making progress.

There may be a "magic" victory formula for the Japanese - such as Sneer suggests - but in my historical reading and 30 years of gaming, I'd have to say they are rare enough - that I'll still bet against there being one in WITP. Maybe a "fools mate" or two. But a (n almost) guaranteed victory plan - that stands up to repeated play between equal experienced players - I still doubt it.


Absolutly there is no guarenteed victory plan. There is too much randomness and too much scope to this game to ever have a guuarentee. I don't claim this. Only that a experienced Japanese player has a very strong chance of gaining the auto-victory.

But the main concern is this: Barring a catastrophy an experienced Japanese player is ALWAYS able to exceed the historical limit of advance. Plus even with a catastrophy (ie. Midway type battle) he will still exceed the historical limit of advance.

Heres why. Your first statement that I quote is correct. This is how the allied player SHOULD play. By disrupting the operations of a CONSTRAINED Japanese player he should be able to screw up Japanese operations and greatly delay his expansion until the force ratios equalize later in the game.

The problem is that Japan is not constrained in any significant way early in the game. He has essentially unlimited fuel, supply, and transport shipping. Disruption of Command and control is not a factor. So disrupting him doesn't do much. He just reroutes a couple fleets the next day, tranfers in a few more air units and Viola everything is under control.

Fleets can stay at sea forever, air units can rebase from 500 miles away to a just captured airbase and fly missions that day. Fuel Fuel and supply everywhere. Where are the constraints on Japan?
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RE: It is easy for Japanese PBEM Player to get 4 to 1 AV 0n 1 Jan 43?

Post by jwilkerson »

The problem is that Japan is not constrained in any significant way early in the game. He has essentially unlimited fuel, supply, and transport shipping. Disruption of Command and control is not a factor. So disrupting him doesn't do much. He just reroutes a couple fleets the next day, tranfers in a few more air units and Viola everything is under control.

Fleets can stay at sea forever, air units can rebase from 500 miles away to a just captured airbase and fly missions that day. Fuel Fuel and supply everywhere. Where are the constraints on Japan?

A few thoughts.

1. I'll agree that Japan is essentially unconstrained regarding supply - in total this is not true [try doubling the capacity of all your factories in the first six months - like I did in my first game !!!] - but an experienced player will have it where needed, when needed and will work to avoid overall shortages. So, first point is agreed.

2. However, regarding time and space - the "three beasts" ... i) KB ... ii) The 6+ BB Surface Group ... iii) The Betty/Zero LBA group ... cannot all be everywhere all the time. We see some people advocating for an attack on India and others advocating to capture the entire CENPAC/SOPAC region. To do these things quickly and without much risk would involve use of KB. We see many players advocating for keeping KB together and not splitting it up. All this implies some constraint. KB cannot jump from the Bay of Bengal to the Coral Sea in one day. Even staging the Betty/Zero LBA force from the Bay of Bengal to the Coral Sea takes several turns - to include some rest.

3. Force - the Japanese have a lot of force, but even from the start of the game if you were to line up the Japanese force side by side with the Allied force, the advantage is not so huge. The key difference is interior lines, essentially the Japanese occupy the center of the map, the Allies the edges. But given some constraint due to time and space, it should be possible for the Allies to concentrate suffficient force in some areas to achieve at least temporary local superiority. Also in the force category is LCU. The Japanese certainly do not have unlimited LCU available for operations outside China for at best some time. We've seen some "amazing" things done with these few units in recent months - but the ability to do everything, everywhere all at the same time, still doesn't exist.

4. Human - perhaps the most important constraint is the Allies are playing against a human player [ assumption of this thread ] - who while certainly better than most non-human players - has certain weaknesses. Players will drift into patterns - if these can be detected and predicted - advantage can be gained. Defeating the ( mind of ) the enemy player should be the true goal for either player. We read AARs often where one side guesses what the other will do - and then we see demorilization on the part of the foiled player. Also human players may react emotionally and feel that they must hold on to a lost base/plan/operation for the sake of "honor". A truely perfect "AI" of course would not make this mistake. But the love of patterns and the emotional nature of most players offer another constraint on the Japanese.

5. Summary. By its very nature, the Japanese expansion into the map edges increases the effects of the contraints on time, space and force and ultimately the initiative is lost, there is simply too much territory to defend and not enough force to defend it - or to be able to switch enough force back and forth across the map across the now greater distances to counter the growing Allied force. This can cause the Japanese player to "take a moral check" which is one reason I think we have seen many games end in early to late summer 1942. The Japanese player "fails" his moral check. But assuming this does not happen. Can the Allies delay in some areas or return in others and avoid suffficient huge relative VP loss and cause some attrition on the Japanese and do enough to stave off the 4 to 1 VP ratio by 1 Jan 43 ?
I won't say there is no magic Japanese victory plan - there might be one - but as you say WITP is a lot more complex than the few games which are known to have been "solved". For exampe Checkers, which has 24 "units" operating on 32 "squares" ( not sure how many units and hexes we have in WITP but it is more !!! ) has still not been "solved" to my knowledge - although I think a group is closing in on that result. To "solve" WITP will either take a true genius or a lot of luck, assuming that it is possible. And given the complexity of "solving" games like Checkers and Chess ... I'd still bet against any of us "solving" WITP anytime soon. But ( as a trained mathematician ) I can't completely rule it out, I do not know that it is impossible ( to solve it ).
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RE: It is easy for Japanese PBEM Player to get 4 to 1 AV 0n 1 Jan 43?

Post by SurrenderMonkey »

ORIGINAL: mc3744

One additional evaluation.

VP-wise there's one base that's critical for the Japs (among those they can capture): Noumea.
Fully developed it amounts to 1300 VPs, it is therefore worth 5.200 to the Japanese in terms of 4-1 ratio, roughly as much as half of China.
In my game vs. Hoepner it makes 14% of my total score.
IMHO one of the killing factors for the Japs are the operational losses due to trainng and bombing.

Just my two cents.

That's more than two cents - that's a buck-fifty of spot-on analysis! In my game as the Jap, I'm stalemated on the doorstep of Noumea, and that's the difference. When I review the situation, I realize what huge aircraft losses I've taken operationally.

The razor's edge for the Jap is to advance quickly without too many unnecessary missions. Very difficult against a trained monkey, let alone a human opponent. (Eminently achievable against the AI.)


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RE: It is easy for Japanese PBEM Player to get 4 to 1 AV 0n 1 Jan 43?

Post by Damien Thorn »

ORIGINAL: Nomad
Like Joe said, just trading 1 for 1 in aircraft will bring the ratio down on its own.

That's one reason why I really believe that the points awarded for a plane should reflect it's combat capability. Destroying a A6M2 or a F4F-4 should count more than destroying a Ki-27 or a F2F.
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