Nomad pinch hits against PzB

[Nomad]

deleted

[ChezDaJez]

No one yet? I'll try once more. Can anyone explain how Bombardment TF can said 600 miles, engage in 5surface combats, and bombard a base all in 24 hours? I would like someone to explain the rational of this. Or is it so obious that I should see it without any help?

The problem isn't with the modeling of the ships movement, it is with the order in which movement occurs. As it is now a SCTF gets 3 movement impulses before being suject to air attack (2 night impulses, 1 day). This is because the first impulse air attack occurs AFTER day movement.

That's just the way it is. Its been bitched about before and will continue to be but it can't be fixed.

Chez

[Nomad]

Good bye all

[wernerpruckner]

sorry to hear that is AAR is going down the


Werner

[Nomad]

Not sure it will Swift, maybe a bit sporatic. I just took off the entries talking about the realistic question.

I have received a couple of emails giving some details about the comments made on PzBs thread. Note that nothing was send concerning any present or future plans. It seems some of you have less than flattering things to say about my playing. If you want to make comments about how I am playing why don't you put them where I can see and respond to them. I am going to answer a couple of them here.

1. I could see that he was going to attack gasmata, why did I not pull back? - How can I know he going to attack? I have seen reports of BBs, CAs, CVs, etc in that area for months. Do I just pick that one day and say "Look he is going to attack this turn?"

2. I should have had more force there. Ok, let's look at the picture at the bottom. this is a list of all the BBs I have. Colorado is waiting to repair another point of system damage so it can get the 4/43 upgrade. North Carolina is repairing damage received earlier in the Solomons. The Massachutets and Washington were repairing damage at PH and at the same time a part of my CV and surface forces stationed there hoping to protect the Northern part of the map. Now, what other forces should I take? Many of my CAs are used for CV protection and a lot of the rest of them are being respawned at this time.

Note that I had 6 PT squadrons in range, 2 at gasmata and 4 2 - 4 hexes away with react ranges set for 4. None of the ones not in the hes reacted and the two that were there did nothing. I have 250+ mines, no effect. I was only hoping that the OK might recieve a lot of damage ( I did not expect it to have a mag explosion) if PzB sent a large force. Other that the OK and the CLs/DDs my loses were mostly to AKs unloading supplies, not a big loss, I have lots of AKs and I get 1 or 2 new ones most every day.

So everyone understands, I have no problem with the result of what happened( I don't like it, but the results are understandable), but I am unhappy with the fact that he could do it all. I and many others complained about bombardment mission since UV days with no results. I am not 'crying' about this, I still say it should not be able to happen.

Now, if any of you that said I have no clue want to respond and tell me what I did that was so wrong, wade it. I can not just sit around and wait for more surface forces since John has more than 3:1 VP odds right now and I will not get any signicant BB forces until the middle of 1944. I have to continue to attack and I just do not have the surface forces to stand toe to toe with him. I am going to continue to take some hits. So for all of you that applaud John and comment on how inept I am in a private thread, just remember that it is easy when you can have local force superority, and real easy to make comments when you have no idea about what the true picture is.

[Andy Mac]

Personally I thought this was a lost cause before ADavidB took over so I am amazed at how much grief you are giving him with so little force.

I am planning on copying FT/ Barge and PT Boat led invasions around NG and New Britain pretty much in full.

It is just so risk free compared to risking capital ships in confined waters.

Yes you got unlucky this time but he has to be hurting from all of these little invasions to count that success as a major triumph I mean lets face it a BB hits a mine or takes any combat damage at all and your LBA would have sank it so he did get quite lucky you can and are island hopping along the new Guinea coast and secure airfields ready for a 44 offensive.

This is all about attriting assets and preparing positions for 44 both of which you are doing well IMO.

Andy

[Tom Hunter]

My comments from the other side of the thread are below:

I am not conviced you have any alternatives, and perhaps if you had a more reasonable starting position you would be doing a lot better. On the other hand PzB is known to be a very dangerous opponent.

WitP can be very tough, especially against someone who really knows what they are doing. Mogami is playing rings around me in the South Pacific, and I am outplaying him in China and the Phillipines. In Burma he is smashing me in the air, and I am winning on the ground. A lot of these wins and losses are happening because of strategy decisions, supply issues and wins and losses from earlier in the game. You inherited them and maybe there is not much you can do. But I stand behind the comments below, PzB is beating you, at least so far.

Please don't take this as an attempt to start a flame war, I am just responding to your request to see the comments on the other thread. Since mine did not talk strategy I think it is fine to post them overhere as well.


(other side starts)
The more surface combat I see with the Japanese attacking the more concerned I am that surface combat is borked.

These battles don't bother me in one respect, the Japanese TF heavily outnumbered the Oklahoma TF and under those circumstances the Oklahoma should get murdered.

But the way the Japanese plow through enemy surface TFs is much more effective than what the Allies do. And my experience is with British Tfs, with night fighting experience in the 70s and 80s, and admirals with 60+ naval skill and 60+ agression.

In my game with Mogami as Japanese attack similar to this one just went off and got similar results. The Japanese seem to attack everything in the hex, the Allies seem to hit about half.

There are also very serious problems with hits and damage. The combination of high manuever and high rate of fire in CLs makes them too dangerous in comparison with a BB. High rate of fire is what generates hits in this game, and high manuever causes misses. The result is that BBs (low ROF, low manuever) get hit and don't do much damage, but CLs (high ROF, High Manuever) score lots of damage and don't get hit. This shows a failure to understand naval combat, because in WWII ships that are trying to score hits need to steam in straight lines, which means by definition they are not using manuever.

I'm not very sympathetic to Nomad in this situation becuase I think he came to the party with inadiquate force and then lost. But I am absolutely certain that surface combat has problems for the reasons I listed above, and I suspect that there are bonuses to the Japanese that we are not aware of and that the Allies need to play around in order to be successful.

I do think your playing rings around Nomad, just as you did with Wobbly. With Dave its is harder to tell because the two of you were in a build up stage so there were no huge battles. (Other side ends)

[Nomad]

No problem Tom. Is PzB beating me? yes, definately. I am constrained by the game mechanics, game rules, and the position I took over. However, how bad is he beating me? When I started the VP ratio was 3.95 to 1. right now it is about 3.2 to 1. Looking at it that way, I am beating John. As far as not 'coming to the party well enough armed', I explained most of that above. It is hard to come to the party properly armed when the arms are not available. I can only fight with what I have. Also, I did not 'know' there would be an attack that turn. It was a possibility, but it was a possibliity for the last 150 turns also. He has hit me before with bombardments. I really do not need anyone to be symphathetic, just understand that I am under some constraints. I still have to get the VP ratio under 3:1 by the end of the year.

My biggest problem was an email that basically said that there were people saying I didn't understand the game, made a stupid mistake, screwed up the turn, blah blah blah. All this in PzBs thread with no mention to me. I just want people to tell me to my face how I screwed up, and then tell me what I should have done.

Here is a status shot showing 1/19/43 when I took over and 7/10/43 the last turn I did. I think I am doing pretty good when you take it all in. I am still losing more than I like, but that is changing as the game goes along.

[Panzer76]

Glad to see you still hang in there

[Tom Hunter]

My biggest problem was an email that basically said that there were people saying I didn't understand the game, made a stupid mistake, screwed up the turn, blah blah blah.

I have not seen that post on the PzB side of this, and I may have been the most critical writer.

One thing about email that people often forget is that it comes across much stronger than spoken words. I believe your getting some ones interpretation of either my post or a similar post, or both.

Frankly I think you were doomed from the start due to decisions made long before you took over the game. You may in fact be stuck between launching risky operations and having a chance of losing, and launching no operations and guaranteeing defeat. Though I have followed the AAR I have not looked at it closely enough to say.

The one thing I am sure of is that PzB is wicked dangerous (I am from Boston, I get to use wicked as an emphasis word.) and he proved that again.

I just set up about 300 planes to attack KB near Noumea on March 28 1942. You may be over in my Lunacy AAR posting about how Mogami is kicking my ass in a few minutes.

[Nomad]

Tom, how can I say anything about the Lunacy games? Hell, Mog is in Russia, has taken the entire PI, SRA and only has Singapore to take in Malaya. I think I'm dead.

I have always know that John is very good. He is dangerous, he spends a lot of time planning and shceming.

I will not sit and do nothing and then lose the game, I might as well not play. I am taking some risks but so far they have been accptable to me and my losses are not a problem. I will be posting a 6 month projection sometime tonight or tomorrow. My production is still much higher than Johns and my later equipment is far superior.

He said something about getting 480 A6M5s each month, I fell that matchs my 150 F4Us, 144 F6Fs, 150 P-47Ds, Corsair IVs, etc. Not to mention my endless streams of 2 and 4 engine bombers.

[Nomad]

A bit of analysis here. First, I do not expect to make any major long range attacks until after 1/1/44. I need to get to an equality of air coordination with PzB. Plus, I need more CVs. My attacks in the second half of 1943 will be to consolidate my position and to advance where I have LBA. Targets are Lea, Finchaven, SagSag, Raboul, Kavieng, Green Island, Buka, the Admiralties, and 2 or 3 bases on the Northern coast of NG. I am also considering an airborne attack to Kai Island. It has a level 1 airbase now. I could use paratroops to take the island, and the 2 or 3 64 sdize groups of C-47s to supply and transport support and combat troops in. I know PzB will probable react stongly so I will have to have a complete plan for getting a lot of troops there fast. The nice thing is that I can take the base on one turn and then position Corsairs there the next turn and transport a Base Force there the second turn. I will need to have at least one transport TF becasue I want to put a Tank Btn there and I can not air transport it. But I should be able to get a complete INf Div there in 3 or 4 days. That will give PzB something to think about. I still would like to use the DEI as an attack route with the intention of trying to retake Karachi in early 1945. Even if I can't get to India, I can still get into position to bomb the oil fields. It is going to be a long time before I will feel I have enough to try to tackle the Marianas. I am going to have to find a better way and I think going by way of the Celebesm, Borneo, and then into the PI may be a better way. I would have more LBA bases to use and that is where my strength is.

By 1/1/44 I expect to be able to field 8 CVs, 9 CVs and I hve Formidable. I will put them into TFs with 2 CVs and 2 CVLs with the TF having Wasp( why didn't you guys lose her?) getting Formadable. That leaves one CVL, I will either put it with one of the TFs or keep it for a spare or use it with my CVEs that have usable air combat units. This will give me 4 CV TFs, 3 with 2 CVS and 2 CVLs, 1 with 2 CVs, 2 CVLs and Formidable. Each TF will get 6 CA/CL/CLAAs and 12 DDs. That will give me over 1000 aircraft and a lot of AAA to deal with KB. I hope it is enough. I would like to engage John where I have some LBA to help.

For surface combat I will have 5 Modern BBs and 4 older BBs, 11 CA, 10 CL, 120 DDs. I will also have the first 2 Iowas arriving in January 1944 to add. Most likely I will divide this into 3 TF with 2 modern BBs, 2 CLs, and 8 DDs each. Then the rest of the CAs and CLs will probalby be used either in smaller SCTFs or in transport TFs when/if I attack a large island where I expect a lot of CD action. I still will have a large number of DDs I can use as small SCTFs and FTs. I also get 47 DDs to use for escort duty.

I have more than enough air units and I am getting loads of new aircraft that should be better than a lot of PzBs but I will need to be careful to get my pilot experience up, expecially the Army and Marines. The Navy pilots come with 75 experience but the Army and Marines are starting with 60.

Likewise I should have enough ground troops to do what I need. I have a number of LSTs arriving each month and they are great at getting a division on the beach in minimum time. I have been using the 2K APs and 1.5K LSDs also. But, the APs have a low Amphipous value so I am trying to eliminate them from my landings and will by 1944. LCTs work great also, but they are slow and have no range. But they have a good amphipous value and a capacity of 150 and they load mostly like an LST.

comments welcome.

[Redd]

Don't let the bastards get you down [:-]. Your play is outstanding. You took on PZB's best PBEM game and as a result you were stuck in a crappy position. But you've made the most of it and are even attacking quite well.

I think that your position is most interesting, I hope that my first PBEM is as challenging.

You are providing a valueable service to the community by finishing this game out so
that we can all see what happens in the later stages of the game.

Stay the course!

[Nomad]

Thank you Redd. I'll try to keep this AAR up, but sometimes I just don't feel like it.

I have started loading troops for the invasion of Lae. Since I use only small troop carriers and ususally do not load supplies on them they will load in one turn. There are loading at Gili Gili and it will take two days to move to Salumea where they start the final run in. I can keep them under CAP the whole way without using LRCAP until the last day. The transport will need to go back to G-G and load up for the invasion of Finchaven and then back once more for the troops for SagSag. Then they move back to Lunga for loading for invasions of Buka and then Green Island. That is a lot of landings in a short timeframe. To further support operations I have sent the BBs Massachutes and Washington to the area( they are at Kirawina now ). They have i tow 2 CA, 2CL, and 12 DDs. Maybe PzB will have a bad turn. [:D] he might try a bombardment or just a SC intercept at Lea so I'll send 24 PTs to accompany the invasion also.

I have my monthly ship reinforcement in 2 days, CV, CVL, 12 DD, 3 DE, 10 LST, etc. I also get 2 USA Divisions and a Reg along with 2 AV reg, a BF and 7 SB units. All I need is for some of my AP fleets to get back to SF. It takes me more than a month to deliver fresh troops from SF to Australia/Nouema adn return the TF to SF. [:(] ( note that it is realistic, just a pain [:)] ) In this monthly reinforcement package is a para reg. I will have some discussion on where it is going in a couple of days( with a picture ). It will take 3 weeks or more to get some pieces together for an airborne operation I will be doing. Well, mostly airborne with some shipping( need ships to carry massive items and massive amounts of supply )

Speaking of supply, it is amazing how much supply large bomber operations require. I have every 7K AK busy moving supply from the WC to PH, Nouema, Lunga, or Brisbane. Most of my 4.5AKs are moving it from those locations to the front bases( and some that are not 'front' but big bomber bases just back from them )

[Tom Hunter]

Your really short on surface combat ships due to losses earlier in game. The TFs you are proposing are similar to the ones I like to run, so they must be good. [:D]

My feeling is that you have to stay under LBA and advance the hard way because you don't have the force to fight Japanese LBA and fleet together.

Also be wary of small surface TFs. Gasmata was an invitation to get ambushed, PzB figured that out and jumped you.

Self discipline is very important in this game, especially when you can't afford to lose a lot of stuff. By this time most Allied players can take more risk because they have more stuff to take risks with.

I don't know if its possible but you might be able to upgrade the Aussie airforce to a good quality British fighter. That would help take pressure off your replacement pools. Short range is a downside but it is something to consider.

One strategy that PzB can use against you is to fight battles that run down your surface navy. Once it is weakened he can try for another Gasmata. You will have to watch for that and resist the temptation to keep on fighting with an inferior force.

I have noticed the same supply problem for bombers in my games. Before I go on a big bombing offensive I make adjustments to the supply pipeline for just that reason.

Good luck

[frank1970]

Nomad, don´t let the guys bring you down!
You play a marvelous game and were unlucky in this last battle.
Bombarding missions are too deadly, that is known and the fighting model is broken (too much fighting in too little time) but just wait until your forces beat his.
Just hang on your strategy of small steps. Bring down NG, it is the only thing you can possibly do without all the surface ships the US Navy lost up to now.
Build up your bases as large as possible (might bring you the occasional point) and try to kill his airforce. This is where you can easily beat him. You won´t have a chance in Naval battles or in land combat now. Bomb every base from air you can reach, even if your transport of troops is delayed. Airforce is the way to go now.

[Nomad]

thanks Frank, I have been mostly off line for over a week. I believe I have things set up now. I will be doing a turn tonight and an update in a day or so. John is out of twon right now.

[rtrapasso]

Nomad -

Don't know if you have seen the thread about the "Fast Transport Bug???" started by Tanaka that is in the main forum
fb.asp?m=993989

but it might have something to do with the awful naval battle business. According to Halsey, the rules say (although i haven't found this yet):

A TF gets to move at 2x its speed when returning to its home base, if it's within x2 range of its speed allowance.
This is why Bombardment TF can't be caught.
This is also why submarines can't seem to catch Transport TF's.
All returning TF's get to warp back to their home port.

In the example Tanaka gave, his Fast Transport TF moved at an average calculated speed of 67.1 mph (assuming ZERO time to pick up the troops)!!

Tanaka has reported this (with saves) as a bug.

[Nomad]

Damn, had a nice long post and lost it. [:@][:@][:@]

I am not sure they are the same thing rtrapasso, might be.

I have two operations planned for the next month. they should start around 8/15/43. It is 7/16/43 now.
I will be doing an Airborn Assault on Kai Island. I have a Para Regiment, an Inf Reg., 2 EABs, and 2 BFs that I will be using. I have done recon on the island and there are no troops there now. I will be taking the island with the para unit and then using a combination of FT TFs and C-47s build it up.

I am currently sending an Australian AF consturction unit to the small dot base indicated. It has an SPS of 1 so building an airbase will not take too long. This will give me some bases that allow me to provide first figher cover and then single and then twin engine bomber basing. With P-38s and B-25Js there I can contol a large area and threaten action in 3 directions( Timor, Kendari, Sorong areas )

I hope this will spread PzBs defenses out some. I am tired of having to protect everywhere but attacking into the teeth of his concentrated defense.

I will post my other operation when I can get a good connection. And I am not sure if that will happen.