I just don't understand land combat

Gary Grigsby's strategic level wargame covering the entire War in the Pacific from 1941 to 1945 or beyond.

Moderators: Joel Billings, wdolson, Don Bowen, mogami

User avatar
WLockard
Posts: 183
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2005 2:58 pm

RE: I just don't understand land combat

Post by WLockard »

ORIGINAL: ADavidB

ORIGINAL: Feinder

LCU combat is (unfortunately) :
a. one of the most important aspects of the game
b. one of the least understood aspects of the game
c. the least known, that it is misunderstood, aspect of the game (if you take my meaning).

LCU combat is -gravely- imporant. Can be more so than even sinking enemy CV. (yep). Take a look at the point losses in any campaign '41 game. The single highest point gainer for Japan is thru LCU casualties. While I think the vp weight for losses is far too high, the game is what it is. And you MUST realize how important ground combat is, because Allied ground combat losses are the single greatest contributer to the Japanese total.

Most folks never sit thru the replay to gather that single most impornt tid-bit of info - the adjusted odds. Yes, it's stupid that it's not available. But until that gets patched in, you -do- have to sit thru the animation. Granted you don't have to watch all the animations. But if the battle is important to you, you had better force yoursef to watch it.

-F-

And with the current design of the game, the most important thing to remember about ground combat is to avoid it at all costs if you do not have an overwhelming local advantage in troops, experience, morale, supplies, leaders, disruption, etc, etc, etc....

That's why, for the Allies in the first year or so of a full campaign game, it is so critical to pull back as much as possible to areas that have a hope of being defended, rather than trying wasteful "do or die" stands which inevitably end up as "do and die"...

Dave Baranyi

More like "Don't and Die" From what I have seen, the Allies just give up most of the time.
User avatar
ADavidB
Posts: 2464
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2001 8:00 am
Location: Toronto, Canada

RE: I just don't understand land combat

Post by ADavidB »

ORIGINAL: WLockard

ORIGINAL: ADavidB

ORIGINAL: Feinder

LCU combat is (unfortunately) :
a. one of the most important aspects of the game
b. one of the least understood aspects of the game
c. the least known, that it is misunderstood, aspect of the game (if you take my meaning).

LCU combat is -gravely- imporant. Can be more so than even sinking enemy CV. (yep). Take a look at the point losses in any campaign '41 game. The single highest point gainer for Japan is thru LCU casualties. While I think the vp weight for losses is far too high, the game is what it is. And you MUST realize how important ground combat is, because Allied ground combat losses are the single greatest contributer to the Japanese total.

Most folks never sit thru the replay to gather that single most impornt tid-bit of info - the adjusted odds. Yes, it's stupid that it's not available. But until that gets patched in, you -do- have to sit thru the animation. Granted you don't have to watch all the animations. But if the battle is important to you, you had better force yoursef to watch it.

-F-

And with the current design of the game, the most important thing to remember about ground combat is to avoid it at all costs if you do not have an overwhelming local advantage in troops, experience, morale, supplies, leaders, disruption, etc, etc, etc....

That's why, for the Allies in the first year or so of a full campaign game, it is so critical to pull back as much as possible to areas that have a hope of being defended, rather than trying wasteful "do or die" stands which inevitably end up as "do and die"...

Dave Baranyi

More like "Don't and Die" From what I have seen, the Allies just give up most of the time.

There are ways to get Allied land forces to fight better:

- Change their leaders to good leaders, particularly the HQ leaders
- Fortify, fortify, fortify - don't build up any port or airfield that you might lose
- Don't waste supply points trying to repair aircraft in the combat zones - bring your aircraft to backwater bases so that they can be easily supplied
- Don't waste supply points by allowing trapped units to get replacements or upgrades
- Retreat just before you think that you will lose a forward base - defeated units are useless units. Retreating units move faster and fight better
- Don't move good new units to deathtraps (Islands/atolls) where they can be outnumbered 3 or more to 1 with no retreat hex!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
- Don't leave good units where they can be bombarded from the sea without being able to shoot back at Japanese BBs
- Fight for bases that provide you supply - abandon bases that don't
- Pull out units that get good replacements, abandon units that don't
- Leave a HQ in the "stack" to absorb bombardment attacks - don't let it get reinforcements
- Change your good leaders for your worst leaders just before you think that your troops will surrender
- Attack your opponent's troops ships over any other enemy ships - drowned troops don't attack

Good luck -

Dave Baranyi
shoevarek
Posts: 141
Joined: Sat May 01, 2004 9:21 pm

RE: I just don't understand land combat

Post by shoevarek »

Mogami:
Hi, It is very important in land combat that the units involved be in range of their HQ. (can alter a 6-1 to 0-1 ) This works when you are the outnumbered party. Being prepared for combat in the hex it occurs changes the combat value by 100 percent. (100k not ready fight like 50k and 50k 100 percent ready fight like 100k) Supply levels alter the ratios. Leaderships and then the normal factors like disruption, fatigue, morale and experiance. In the end raw troop numbers matter less then many players suppose.

This design choice seems to backfire.
1) In current system it is really hard to check if combat unit is still in the range of its army or corps HQ.
2) Independent HQ units have too much impact on the combat results. In current game I had entire JA brigade fighting with the surrounded chineese unit for months - the unit was an HQ with no supplies at all. Even achieving 6-1 ratio my unit suffered huge losses for no gains. In other pocket I have 50000 Chinese with no supplies at all (no forts too) but my force of 200000 can do nothing. I achieve more than 4-1 combat ratios and on attack get 5000 casaulties for their 1000. I have more supplies, more experience, more guns, but AI has more HQ units. This happens in CHS mode but I think HQ unit effect (I assume it is caused by HQ) is the same in stock scenarios.

I think independent HQ units should add small combat modifier but this should not be stacked - for example beeing in the range of single HQ should have same effect as beeing in the range of multiple HQs (of cause I do not consider here differences in HQ leader modifiers) - he closest HQ should take precedense. Each combat unit has its own internal HQ and this should be enough to carry on effective combat.
User avatar
mogami
Posts: 11053
Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2000 8:00 am
Location: You can't get here from there

RE: I just don't understand land combat

Post by mogami »

Hi, The poor game catches if from both directions. People say it is too fast but when 50,000 troops don't just all die in one day the system is also questioned.
If you have 200,000 versus 50,000 I'm willing to bet your not actually losing 5,000 for 1000 (your getting disabled while Chinese are getting killed)
In the combat report troops who disabled are listed as casualties but they return to combat status in a day or two (if you have supply)
Out of supply units cannot recover
It takes a while to kill 50,000 troops even when they are out of supply and out numbered 4 to 1. Certain units don't surrender easy and Chinese in the countryside are among the hardest to kill.
Image




I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!
User avatar
Oleg Mastruko
Posts: 4534
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2000 8:00 am

RE: I just don't understand land combat

Post by Oleg Mastruko »

ORIGINAL: tabpub
What I do now, is setup the digital camera on video in front of the screen; start it running before the combat and go off to do whatever (make a sandwich, do my necessaries, laundry, etc.). Then I can come back and rewind it to the part that gives the assualt values. Only need to do it on the big fights, but, those are the most important ones after all....

LOL! This is great but I have better solution - similar to yours but does not involve external camera. I found free screen capturing application that captures everything that happens on the screen in AVI movie file. I start WITP in window and start the applet. Later on I have 600+ MB AVI file to analyse - JUST to find what the adjusted assault values are!

It is so very funny to see what lengths we WITP fans are prepared to go to enjoy the game [:D]

O.
Cpt Sherwood
Posts: 837
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 12:27 am
Location: A Very Nice Place in the USA

RE: I just don't understand land combat

Post by Cpt Sherwood »

Oleg, could you tell us what program you are using?
“Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity.” ― Lucius Annaeus Seneca
User avatar
Sardaukar
Posts: 12481
Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2001 10:00 am
Location: Finland/Israel

RE: I just don't understand land combat

Post by Sardaukar »

What I don't understand is why the combat is in I-GO/U-GO format when it's happening in same hex. More logical would be to resolve the combat in one phase (WE-GO) with both sides' actions compared and resolved. But I guess it's not GG-style...[8D]
"To meaningless French Idealism, Liberty, Fraternity and Equality...we answer with German Realism, Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery" -Prince von Bülov, 1870-

Image
User avatar
Apollo11
Posts: 25218
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2001 8:00 am
Location: Zagreb, Croatia
Contact:

RE: I just don't understand land combat

Post by Apollo11 »

Hi all,
ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko
ORIGINAL: tabpub
What I do now, is setup the digital camera on video in front of the screen; start it running before the combat and go off to do whatever (make a sandwich, do my necessaries, laundry, etc.). Then I can come back and rewind it to the part that gives the assualt values. Only need to do it on the big fights, but, those are the most important ones after all....

LOL! This is great but I have better solution - similar to yours but does not involve external camera. I found free screen capturing application that captures everything that happens on the screen in AVI movie file. I start WITP in window and start the applet. Later on I have 600+ MB AVI file to analyse - JUST to find what the adjusted assault values are!

It is so very funny to see what lengths we WITP fans are prepared to go to enjoy the game [:D]

O.

For 2+ years now I am using something similar... [;)]

I have "HypersnapDX" program that takes screenshots when I press certain key (my choice).

Thus, after land combat I have few pictures instead of move (I take pictures when data on screen changes). I know that this is more troublesome than Oleg's move but it is 1000x smaller and easier to analyze...


Leo "Apollo11"

Image

Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE
User avatar
Feinder
Posts: 7177
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2002 7:33 pm
Location: Land o' Lakes, FL

RE: I just don't understand land combat

Post by Feinder »

Or they could just include (at least) the adjusted odds in the combat report. THAT isn't hard. If you really want to see the status of the individual units, you can sit thru the replay. But just adding the base/adjusted for each side to to combat report would be VERY useful.

But it's not like that hasn't been asked before.

-F-
"It is obvious that you have greatly over-estimated my regard for your opinion." - Me

Image
User avatar
Sardaukar
Posts: 12481
Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2001 10:00 am
Location: Finland/Israel

RE: I just don't understand land combat

Post by Sardaukar »

Not only I don't understand Land Combat, I don't understand Production System, Supply Movement and some amphibious invasion stuff in this game !! So you folks are way better off than me ! [:D]
"To meaningless French Idealism, Liberty, Fraternity and Equality...we answer with German Realism, Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery" -Prince von Bülov, 1870-

Image
Sonny
Posts: 2005
Joined: Wed Apr 03, 2002 9:51 pm

RE: I just don't understand land combat

Post by Sonny »

ORIGINAL: Feinder

Or they could just include (at least) the adjusted odds in the combat report. THAT isn't hard. If you really want to see the status of the individual units, you can sit thru the replay. But just adding the base/adjusted for each side to to combat report would be VERY useful.

But it's not like that hasn't been asked before.

-F-

Along with the land search results in the ops file. You know, the report of how many enemy planes came up to meet your search planes.
Quote from Snigbert -

"If you mess with the historical accuracy, you're going to have ahistorical outcomes."

"I'll say it again for Sonny's sake: If you mess with historical accuracy, you're going to have
ahistorical outcomes. "
User avatar
Helpless
Posts: 15786
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2004 3:12 pm

RE: I just don't understand land combat

Post by Helpless »

This is the thread from WPO forum. Guess the same might be applied to WITP as well...

tm.asp?m=1017768

[:)]
Pavel Zagzin
WITE/WITW/WITE-2 Development
User avatar
Oleg Mastruko
Posts: 4534
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2000 8:00 am

RE: I just don't understand land combat

Post by Oleg Mastruko »

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

I have "HypersnapDX" program that takes screenshots when I press certain key (my choice).

Thus, after land combat I have few pictures instead of move (I take pictures when data on screen changes). I know that this is more troublesome than Oleg's move but it is 1000x smaller and easier to analyze...

Yes but your method requires you to be present and actually watch the screen waiting for the allmighty "adjusted assault value". Whole idea (for me) is not to have to wait, to go somewhere while the battle goes on and analyse the AVI later [:D]

Anyway, I can't remember the name of the applet I use, as I am on the road with my laptop and don't have it installed here, sorry... There are several nice free applications that will capture your screen and make AVIs....

O.
User avatar
Nikademus
Posts: 22517
Joined: Sat May 27, 2000 8:00 am
Location: Alien spacecraft

RE: I just don't understand land combat

Post by Nikademus »

Just do it like Mac Oleg......tell your subordinates to succeed or don't bother coming back. [:D]
User avatar
ltfightr
Posts: 536
Joined: Sun Jun 16, 2002 7:46 am
Location: Little Rock AR
Contact:

RE: I just don't understand land combat

Post by ltfightr »

The fact that the assult odds are hidden is one of the worst features.
Support the Boy Scouts buy Popcorn!
http://www.trails-end.com/estore/scouts ... id=3133025
Lt. Calley
Posts: 80
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2005 5:47 am

RE: I just don't understand land combat

Post by Lt. Calley »

After someone offered to pay Matrix $1000, Matrix promised to unhide the assault odds in War Plan Orange:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1017768
shoevarek
Posts: 141
Joined: Sat May 01, 2004 9:21 pm

RE: I just don't understand land combat

Post by shoevarek »

Hi, The poor game catches if from both directions. People say it is too fast but when 50,000 troops don't just all die in one day the system is also questioned.
If you have 200,000 versus 50,000 I'm willing to bet your not actually losing 5,000 for 1000 (your getting disabled while Chinese are getting killed)
In the combat report troops who disabled are listed as casualties but they return to combat status in a day or two (if you have supply)
Out of supply units cannot recover
It takes a while to kill 50,000 troops even when they are out of supply and out numbered 4 to 1. Certain units don't surrender easy and Chinese in the countryside are among the hardest to kill.

Maybe you are right Mogami. I tend to think all numbers displayed in the report are real casaulties when in reality the FoW obscures not only oponent casaulties but also my own (which seems pretty strange and causes a lot of confusion). Anyway as it is in CHS playing against AI the chinese war could not be described as japanese blitzkrieg - which actually makes it more enjoyable. I gave those examples not because I think I should be able to destroy entire Chinese army in one day but because they really seem strange. It is different story when you attack head on on the well supplied, fortified force, and different story when you want to squeeze the small pocket of resistance. Chinese units seem to defend (without supply, heavy equipment and entrenchments) more valiantly than US or british troops. My guess is that this is the effect of the maltitude of chinese HQs. It can also be some misteroius hard coded modifier.
User avatar
dtravel
Posts: 4533
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2004 6:34 pm

RE: I just don't understand land combat

Post by dtravel »

ORIGINAL: Lt. Calley

After someone offered to pay Matrix $1000, Matrix promised to unhide the assault odds in War Plan Orange:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1017768

So, how much is it going to cost to have them do the exact same code change to WiTP? [8|]
This game does not have a learning curve. It has a learning cliff.

"Bomb early, bomb often, bomb everything." - Niceguy

Any bugs I report are always straight stock games.

Image
User avatar
Ron Saueracker
Posts: 10967
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 10:00 am
Location: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece

RE: I just don't understand land combat

Post by Ron Saueracker »

ORIGINAL: dtravel

ORIGINAL: Lt. Calley

After someone offered to pay Matrix $1000, Matrix promised to unhide the assault odds in War Plan Orange:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1017768

So, how much is it going to cost to have them do the exact same code change to WiTP? [8|]

[:D]
Image

Image

Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan
Post Reply

Return to “War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945”