Toward an Improvised Civilian Economy

[witpqs]

el cid again,

You might have a look (in CHS) at the Canadian base of Port Alice. The place literally burns up supplies with practically nothing there and nothing going on. It might be hard coded, or there might be something useful in the configuration.

[Bradley7735]

One thing I would caution about when making units that suck up supply....

Try not to put fixed units in malaria zones. If you can't rotate a unit out of a malaria zone, it'll just be a point bucket for the other side. Take Sumatra for example. Instead of having smaller units at most of the bases in the area, just put one big one in Palembang (non-malarial).

Singapore, Rangoon, Saigon, Soerabaja, and Manila are all non-malaria and should be used for locations of units for nearby resource producers.

I love CHS but one little thing that annoys me is the CD unit at Thursday Is. and Christmas Is. The Japanese don't even need to invade to get the troop points. Just wait until they wither and die. (I fully agree with making WC/India base forces that are fixed, though. Just not in malaria zones.)

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: Bradley7735
I love CHS but one little thing that annoys me is the CD unit at Thursday Is. and Christmas Is. The Japanese don't even need to invade to get the troop points. Just wait until they wither and die. (I fully agree with making WC/India base forces that are fixed, though. Just not in malaria zones.)

Good point. Something to think about...

[doktorblood]

I guess I don't understand the point of this whole excercise. What excessive supplies?

[Bradley7735]

ORIGINAL: doktorblood

I guess I don't understand the point of this whole excercise. What excessive supplies?

All of the DEI and most of the rest of the map produce enough supplies to keep a very large army in combat. That reduces the need to actually ship stuff to Japan and return with supplies. So, Japan ends up having significantly more cargo ships than needed (anyone actually play where they are looking for AK's even in 45?)

The attempt is to do something about places like Malaya that produce enough supply that you don't need to import and therby requiring your ships to be at sea (and vulnerable).

There are more reasons and I'm probably not the best to explain this (el cid again does a good job if you read the entire thread).

[Ron Saueracker]

It would help immensely if the design could simply seperate resources from supply. Then the editor could do it some justice since Andrew Brown with his extended map has given us an on map/off map potential with the Red Sea and Panama.

[el cid again]

Try not to put fixed units in malaria zones. If you can't rotate a unit out of a malaria zone, it'll just be a point bucket for the other side. Take Sumatra for example. Instead of having smaller units at most of the bases in the area, just put one big one in Palembang (non-malarial).

You make a very fine point - and one I had not thought of. But I had independently decided on one at Palembang anyway - because of slot limitations and other technical factors. Palembang is special - and it may be it can do without such a unit - because supply points include aviation spirit made at Palembang! This needs careful analysis.

[el cid again]

I guess I don't understand the point of this whole excercise. What excessive supplies?

OK. Consider Malaya. Yamashita took the place in 100 days with three divisions - because he could not feed more than that. In the game you can take it in 10 days with as many divisions as you like - because you don't have to feed them - they can eat the local supplies. Col Tsuji (chief of operations for Yamashita and author of Japan's Greatest Victory - Britian's Worst Defeat) tells us of his delight at capture of "Churchill's supplies" - but that was not enough to feed the corps.

The British surrendered for lack of supply - and they had run in many supply ships. In the game you don't have to run supplies into Malaya. It makes its own.

Many places in the game are self supporting or more than that because resource centers make supply points - which is pretty much nonsense. Supplies should be made in manufacturing centers from oil and resources - not in resource centers themselves - or else not in the quantity represented. It distorts reality so much Japan is NOT forced to export supplies to feed its military at all. It took me 5 DAYS to stabolize Japanese production on my first try - stuff and nonsense. This is the critical point of the war - Japan goes to war to get resources and oil that it needs to MAKE its military goods - not to capture colonies that make these things already.

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

I guess I don't understand the point of this whole excercise. What excessive supplies?

OK. Consider Malaya. Yamashita took the place in 100 days with three divisions - because he could not feed more than that. In the game you can take it in 10 days with as many divisions as you like - because you don't have to feed them - they can eat the local supplies. Col Tsuji (chief of operations for Yamashita and author of Japan's Greatest Victory - Britian's Worst Defeat) tells us of his delight at capture of "Churchill's supplies" - but that was not enough to feed the corps.

The British surrendered for lack of supply - and they had run in many supply ships. In the game you don't have to run supplies into Malaya. It makes its own.

Many places in the game are self supporting or more than that because resource centers make supply points - which is pretty much nonsense. Supplies should be made in manufacturing centers from oil and resources - not in resource centers themselves - or else not in the quantity represented. It distorts reality so much Japan is NOT forced to export supplies to feed its military at all. It took me 5 DAYS to stabolize Japanese production on my first try - stuff and nonsense. This is the critical point of the war - Japan goes to war to get resources and oil that it needs to MAKE its military goods - not to capture colonies that make these things already.

F-----g A, BUBBA!

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

I guess I don't understand the point of this whole excercise. What excessive supplies?

OK. Consider Malaya. Yamashita took the place in 100 days with three divisions - because he could not feed more than that. In the game you can take it in 10 days with as many divisions as you like - because you don't have to feed them - they can eat the local supplies. Col Tsuji (chief of operations for Yamashita and author of Japan's Greatest Victory - Britian's Worst Defeat) tells us of his delight at capture of "Churchill's supplies" - but that was not enough to feed the corps.

The British surrendered for lack of supply - and they had run in many supply ships. In the game you don't have to run supplies into Malaya. It makes its own.

Many places in the game are self supporting or more than that because resource centers make supply points - which is pretty much nonsense. Supplies should be made in manufacturing centers from oil and resources - not in resource centers themselves - or else not in the quantity represented. It distorts reality so much Japan is NOT forced to export supplies to feed its military at all. It took me 5 DAYS to stabolize Japanese production on my first try - stuff and nonsense. This is the critical point of the war - Japan goes to war to get resources and oil that it needs to MAKE its military goods - not to capture colonies that make these things already.

CID. It's simply another example of the need to cobble together an AI that could give the appearence of playing the game leading the designers into foolishness. Rather than try to program it to actually have to move supply in game terms, they took a "shortcut" and simply shoveled supply all over the map for it to use. Just look at the piles sitting in insignificant and unoccupied Dutch bases in New Guinea at the start of the game. And in areas that would host major campaigns, they invented the "Supply Factory" to cope with the AI's ignorance.

[el cid again]

CID. It's simply another example of the need to cobble together an AI that could give the appearence of playing the game leading the designers into foolishness. Rather than try to program it to actually have to move supply in game terms, they took a "shortcut" and simply shoveled supply all over the map for it to use. Just look at the piles sitting in insignificant and unoccupied Dutch bases in New Guinea at the start of the game. And in areas that would host major campaigns, they invented the "Supply Factory" to cope with the AI's ignorance.

Well, AI is hard to write! If you don't think so, try to write some.
But I think the AI is MORE than capable of this. Which is why I am going to ask it to shoevel even more supplies - eat the wrong ones and then deal with ones in places they are not now. Andrew has added industry to small places and I think he will add more if I can manage to get rid of the excesses in the wrong places. I think it was just plain bad design. This was done by a very few guys with limited time and - forgive me - poor organization and less testing.

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

But I think the AI is MORE than capable of this. Which is why I am going to ask it to shoevel even more supplies - eat the wrong ones and then deal with ones in places they are not now. Andrew has added industry to small places and I think he will add more if I can manage to get rid of the excesses in the wrong places. I think it was just plain bad design. This was done by a very few guys with limited time and - forgive me - poor organization and less testing.

I agree that it's hard, and that the crew doing it was too few...., but they also had an "easy out" if they didn't have the time and manpower to get it right. The AI could have been limited to smaller scenarios where it's limitations wouldn't have been as glaring and could have been "fudged for" in less dramatic fashion. Warn player's that the AI is not a reliable or challenging opponant in the Full War scenarios as they were designed for "head-to-head" competition while the smaller ones serve for practice and learning as well. They just didn't think it through very well... , and they "caved in" to the demands of the accountants and eager players and released a "poorly organized and less tested" product.

[Bradley7735]

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

ORIGINAL: el cid again

But I think the AI is MORE than capable of this. Which is why I am going to ask it to shoevel even more supplies - eat the wrong ones and then deal with ones in places they are not now. Andrew has added industry to small places and I think he will add more if I can manage to get rid of the excesses in the wrong places. I think it was just plain bad design. This was done by a very few guys with limited time and - forgive me - poor organization and less testing.

I agree that it's hard, and that the crew doing it was too few...., but they also had an "easy out" if they didn't have the time and manpower to get it right. The AI could have been limited to smaller scenarios where it's limitations wouldn't have been as glaring and could have been "fudged for" in less dramatic fashion. Warn player's that the AI is not a reliable or challenging opponant in the Full War scenarios as they were designed for "head-to-head" competition while the smaller ones serve for practice and learning as well. They just didn't think it through very well... , and they "caved in" to the demands of the accountants and eager players and released a "poorly organized and less tested" product.

Hey, I don't remember making any demands! [:'(][;)]

[el cid again]

For what it is worth, any organization that does NOT listen to its accountants is probably going out of business! Many a software project ran into trouble not worrying about how to keep costs down. They did get it to work - and I remember a WITP that NEVER DID work - so that is something.

[el cid again]

It is finally becoming clear:

Food IS in supply points - but we need NOT calculate ALL food in Asia!

It is ONLY in supply points to the extent we need to feed some units some place.

Just as rural populations are ignored - and they can subsist on local resources- so can urban populations that survive on local production. Even if you try to take all the food out of a place, it won't work, and Japan didn't try. You cannot get people to cooperate in any sense if they must starve and their families must starve.

ONLY food that is SURPLUS to the needs of an area need be considered available for export.

And this is well measured by data actually available to us - no calculation required! We can use food exports (e.g. rice from Vietnam in 1940).

[el cid again]

Maybe it is better to eat only some supply points at some resource centers? Maybe "light industry" can be simulated by centers that make supply points but NOT heavy industry points or fuel?

Anyway, it appears that the technical problems may be working out. It may be NO slots are needed at all. And the sinks not being units means they can even change sides when the resource center does! Aside from testing my only concern is the massive work to do the research to implement this well - point by point analysis.

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

Maybe it is better to eat only some supply points at some resource centers? Maybe "light industry" can be simulated by centers that make supply points but NOT heavy industry points or fuel?

Anyway, it appears that the technical problems may be working out. It may be NO slots are needed at all. And the sinks not being units means they can even change sides when the resource center does! Aside from testing my only concern is the massive work to do the research to implement this well - point by point analysis.

The thing that is annoying me is how hard would it be to separate the supply/resources dynamic within the code? This is ridiculous! Of all the things affecting the game or being asked of the devs, this has to be the easiest. There is no excuse for this. This would allow mods/devs to make two scenarios, one with ample supply anywhere to support the AI and one with a reasonable distribution as set by the mods for PBEM players who don't want or need this silly amount of supply.

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

ORIGINAL: el cid again

I guess I don't understand the point of this whole excercise. What excessive supplies?

OK. Consider Malaya. Yamashita took the place in 100 days with three divisions - because he could not feed more than that. In the game you can take it in 10 days with as many divisions as you like - because you don't have to feed them - they can eat the local supplies. Col Tsuji (chief of operations for Yamashita and author of Japan's Greatest Victory - Britian's Worst Defeat) tells us of his delight at capture of "Churchill's supplies" - but that was not enough to feed the corps.

The British surrendered for lack of supply - and they had run in many supply ships. In the game you don't have to run supplies into Malaya. It makes its own.

Many places in the game are self supporting or more than that because resource centers make supply points - which is pretty much nonsense. Supplies should be made in manufacturing centers from oil and resources - not in resource centers themselves - or else not in the quantity represented. It distorts reality so much Japan is NOT forced to export supplies to feed its military at all. It took me 5 DAYS to stabolize Japanese production on my first try - stuff and nonsense. This is the critical point of the war - Japan goes to war to get resources and oil that it needs to MAKE its military goods - not to capture colonies that make these things already.

CID. It's simply another example of the need to cobble together an AI that could give the appearence of playing the game leading the designers into foolishness. Rather than try to program it to actually have to move supply in game terms, they took a "shortcut" and simply shoveled supply all over the map for it to use. Just look at the piles sitting in insignificant and unoccupied Dutch bases in New Guinea at the start of the game. And in areas that would host major campaigns, they invented the "Supply Factory" to cope with the AI's ignorance.

I've come to the same conclusion.

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

It is finally becoming clear:

Food IS in supply points - but we need NOT calculate ALL food in Asia!

It is ONLY in supply points to the extent we need to feed some units some place.

Just as rural populations are ignored - and they can subsist on local resources- so can urban populations that survive on local production. Even if you try to take all the food out of a place, it won't work, and Japan didn't try. You cannot get people to cooperate in any sense if they must starve and their families must starve.

ONLY food that is SURPLUS to the needs of an area need be considered available for export.
And this is well measured by data actually available to us - no calculation required! We can use food exports (e.g. rice from Vietnam in 1940).

Food IS in supply points - but we need NOT calculate ALL food in Asia!

It is ONLY in supply points to the extent we need to feed some units some place.

Exactly!

[el cid again]

The thing that is annoying me is how hard would it be to separate the supply/resources dynamic within the code? This is ridiculous! Of all the things affecting the game or being asked of the devs, this has to be the easiest. There is no excuse for this. This would allow mods/devs to make two scenarios, one with ample supply anywhere to support the AI and one with a reasonable distribution as set by the mods for PBEM players who don't want or need this silly amount of supply.

But we have an official statement they won't be separated. So we either live with it - or address it another way. There seems to be school of thought "we should fix it in code" - but that is impractical if you want to play in any reasonable time frame without this problem. The more I work with it, the more I think it may be possible to make it work so well we will not care if it is ever separated - we will like the destruction of resource centers when they change hands (caused by engineers we don't have to put there) - etc.