Hawaii threatened. What to do?

[Feinder]

The troops aren't the problem.

It's getting your transports with the troops there safely that is the problem. If Japan holds PH, they hold all of the Hawiian Islands. If they hold HI, they have several large airbases with lots of LBA. And that's not even couting KB.

You're not getting anywhere near a Japanese held PH without your own CVs flying top cover. Which means Japan says, "Hm. I can have my own LBA support + KB vs. his carriers. He'll be in the middle of the ocean. If he loses a CV, all those planes are dead. If I lose a ship, they fly back to PH..."

The USN will be hard pressed to engage KB as CV vs. CV before 08-42. And if you throw in another 250 2e bombers and 150 fighters from PH, you're looking at a very bad day for the USN.

-F-

[moses]

Original: Bradfordkay.

Guys, am I mistaken in thinking that the carriers cannot reload bombs and torpedoes with at-sea replenishment?

Thats why I claim he needs all his carriers so that he can split them into two strong groups. One hanging around bombing PH; the other going back to Kwajelin for refuel, replace and replenish sorties.

So KB is not enough as when you split it it may be vulnerable to attack by the four US CV's. Especially after its lost some aircraft bombing PH.

My only question is can they replenish sorties at Midway once it is captured. I don't recall what if any the port size requirment is or at what size port Midway starts at. Being able to replenish there would help Japan as it is much closer.

[EUBanana]

ORIGINAL: Feinder

The troops aren't the problem.

It's getting your transports with the troops there safely that is the problem. If Japan holds PH, they hold all of the Hawiian Islands. If they hold HI, they have several large airbases with lots of LBA. And that's not even couting KB.

You're not getting anywhere near a Japanese held PH without your own CVs flying top cover. Which means Japan says, "Hm. I can have my own LBA support + KB vs. his carriers. He'll be in the middle of the ocean. If he loses a CV, all those planes are dead. If I lose a ship, they fly back to PH..."

The USN will be hard pressed to engage KB as CV vs. CV before 08-42. And if you throw in another 250 2e bombers and 150 fighters from PH, you're looking at a very bad day for the USN.

-F-

But this assumes the Japanese CVs and the majority of their shipbusting air units are permanently stationed at Pearl, which I doubt they will be - if they are its probably a boon rather than a problem.

It also assumes Japanese pilot quality can be maintained, which is pretty iffy. In my experience as soon as P-38s arrive the Jap airforce goes to the toilet pretty quickly, so long as those P-38s can be used.

The US could still maintain pressure. I think in such a scenario I'd probably be looking at Norpac more, with the central Pacific closed down. You could raid south from the Aleutians and threaten that long supply line. In the latter half of 42 I think any position at Pearl would be extremely iffy for the Japanese.

[moses]

In the latter half of 42 I think any position at Pearl would be extremely iffy for the Japanese.

I would think that the Japanese held Hawaian chain would be very hard to assault until at least late 43 and would be difficult even then. Japan has several mutually supporting bases which cannot all be shut down. They are immune to LBA and so this allows the perfect battle between Japanese LBA and US CV's.

So the allies show up with 8 carriers and say 600 carrier aircraft to do battle with 200 bombers and several hundred Japanese fighters. They fight for several days and then what? At some point you have to worry about KB showing up and hitting your depleted airgroups. Any damaged Japanese CV's are sitting right next to a level 9 port while the US CV's are a long way from safety.

Maybe the US can win and I'm sure eventually they will as they get more and more firepower. But it would be much easier just to invade someplace else which is more isolated form supporting airbases.

[Nikademus]

If the Japan player is hell bent on defending the islands one could mess with him by feinting operations in other areas. If he responds to the new threat, you can then hit the Islands, if not....keep attacking from the other area.

[Feinder]

But this assumes the Japanese CVs and the majority of their shipbusting air units are permanently stationed at Pearl, which I doubt they will be - if they are its probably a boon rather than a problem.

Actually, permanancy is not necessary at all.

All you have to do is bounce the planes in, when you see him coming.

I am quite sure this is possible. I do it all the time in my PBEM vs. Ollie. It's 1945. I'm Japan. I keep a few "bastion" airfields. I pick a new AF every couple days, to stay in front of the B-29s. I've got enough fighters to make him pay, if ever he does catch up with me. It's just a shell game.

And when I spot a TF, I fly in the Kamikazes and escorts to the local base. Yes Mildred, you -can- fly across the Pacific. Give 'em a day or two rest. Then swig of Saki and they happily fly off to smash into his ships. And yes, these are suck pilots. Just ask Ollie how effective the CAP over his CVEs was, vs 200 fighters (exp 35) and 250 Kamikazes. And he's got Hellcats and a crap load more CVs than the 5 or 6 you'd have in 1942.

Assaulting PH as Allies would -not- be fun before 1943.

-F-

[niceguy2005]

ORIGINAL: AirGriff

He's about to take Johnston Isl. Do you guys think it's worth trying to sneak a division in to Hilo or Lahaina? It's pretty risky, but you masterminds are making me very nervous again.

It is a good idea if:
1. You have at least 2.5 divisions plus support already at PH.
2. You have at least some decently defended islands in the south pac
3. You can spare the reinforcements from WC.

Frankly, if PH is strong and well supplied I wouldn't worry too much about it. I have argued in the forums before that IMO it is foolish for the Japanese to go after PH in a PBEM game (if well defended) the cost in INF, carrier planes and time is not worth the gain. In RL the Japanese knew this and that is why they didn't go for PH.

If you want to sneak something in I would suggest.
1. Supplies
2. Fighters to attack his carrier based planes (but not P-40Bs)

[Nikademus]

It helps explain the real life pace more at least.....the US was very concerned over losing a base as important as PH initially and stuffed it. Often in WitP, players are chaffing at the bit to go on the counter-offensive against Japan in early 42. lol...still remember the time Kid invaded Tarawa in 2/42. [:D]

[moses]

Plus against the larger carrier goups you don't need to send in the bombers on the first day anyway. A few days of fighting with primarily fighter aircraft is better as it wears down the ubercap a bit. After a couple turns of this is when you send in your 200 Betties heavily escorted by fighters.

There is no need for KB to stay anywhere near PH. Better to have KB sitting in some safe centralized location. As the allies carriers appear at PH you send KB on a lazy trip in that direction to arrive 8-12 turns later. When you arrive you either face a depleted and tired allied carrier TF or the allies have alredy given up and headed home to replenish.

[EUBanana]

Mmm, I'm still not convinced. If the Allies hit one of the islands, Midway probably, yes I know its in Betty range of Pearl/Wake but its a long way for them to fly. You could put the smack on Midway (or Canton Island, or any other hanging atoll) hard as you'll hardly be short of LCUs, and once you got your foot in the door...

[EUBanana]

ORIGINAL: moses
or the allies have alredy given up and headed home to replenish.

...and thats fine. The Allies can come back in a few days. Unless you sink a CV, soon as it gets back to port its "depleted and tired" aircrew is back up to top notch again instantly.

And then you rinse, repeat.

[moses]

ORIGINAL: EUBanana

Mmm, I'm still not convinced. If the Allies hit one of the islands, Midway probably, yes I know its in Betty range of Pearl/Wake but its a long way for them to fly. You could put the smack on Midway (or Canton Island, or any other hanging atoll) hard as you'll hardly be short of LCUs, and once you got your foot in the door...

Sure you could bypass PH by taking Midway or some other island. Midway is much more isolated and its an easy matter to suppress such a small base. Betties from PH are going to be far less effective flying long distance from PH and surely you will keep your carriers outside of zero range and so the only threat is too your transports.

Still its hard to see how you continue your offensive from Midway with PH in your rear. I can store years of supply and fuel and operate with great effect on your lines of communication from PH.

Having your carriers at Midway while mine are at PH is bad. Carriers cutting off your line of retreat??? Maybe you get away with it but its a serious risk. What do you do with a damaged carrier at Midway if I hold PH?

I really think that you would have more trouble keeping your troops at Midway alive then I would have at PH. What happens when your carriers leave Midway?? Now you have a few troops located in the center of a Japanese held Pacific at a single isolated base. How easy to suppress and then destroy them.

[moses]

ORIGINAL: EUBanana

ORIGINAL: moses
or the allies have alredy given up and headed home to replenish.

...and thats fine. The Allies can come back in a few days. Unless you sink a CV, soon as it gets back to port its "depleted and tired" aircrew is back up to top notch again instantly.

And then you rinse, repeat.

More like two weeks to get back to west coast and back. Plenty of time for Japan to replenish.

Buts its not that the allies can't win. It's just that this is the hardest possible way for them to do it.

Japan would like nothing better then for the allies to pound away at an integrated multi-base defence system outside of allied bomber range.

Isn't it fun to talk strategy.[:)][:)][:)]

[EUBanana]

ORIGINAL: moses

ORIGINAL: EUBanana

Mmm, I'm still not convinced. If the Allies hit one of the islands, Midway probably, yes I know its in Betty range of Pearl/Wake but its a long way for them to fly. You could put the smack on Midway (or Canton Island, or any other hanging atoll) hard as you'll hardly be short of LCUs, and once you got your foot in the door...

Sure you could bypass PH by taking Midway or some other island. Midway is much more isolated and its an easy matter to suppress such a small base. Betties from PH are going to be far less effective flying long distance from PH and surely you will keep your carriers outside of zero range and so the only threat is too your transports.

Still its hard to see how you continue your offensive from Midway with PH in your rear. I can store years of supply and fuel and operate with great effect on your lines of communication from PH.

Having your carriers at Midway while mine are at PH is bad. Carriers cutting off your line of retreat??? Maybe you get away with it but its a serious risk. What do you do with a damaged carrier at Midway if I hold PH?

I really think that you would have more trouble keeping your troops at Midway alive then I would have at PH. What happens when your carriers leave Midway?? Now you have a few troops located in the center of a Japanese held Pacific at a single isolated base. How easy to suppress and then destroy them.

Easy to suppress? Not really, I would say.

I learned in the DEI that the way to make Jap lives miserable is fighters. You want fighters, not torpedo bombers or anything else, you need to channel Hugh Dowding.

If you can put 200 fighters on Midway Island - with some bombers as well of course, but the majority fighters - then you won't be suppressing it easily without getting your airforce cut to pieces. Shouldnt be that hard to do if he has Pearl and the West Coast is brimming with troops, all it'd take is a couple of those 72 Airacobra stacks becoming P-38s.

[moses]

I got the answer to this. 2BB's with a couple CA's and DD's. One bombardment run and your 200 fighters are toast. An overstuffed airbase in easy bombardment range is just asking for it. After the BB's level the island my carriers/LBA hit the island to keep you down.

Really an single isolated island is not hard to supress. Its just a training run for KB. I don't even need the BB's. They just make it easier. You can't even resupply or transfer in fighters there.

I just wait for your carriers to leave. What fun!!![:D]

[EUBanana]

ORIGINAL: moses

I got the answer to this. 2BB's with a couple CA's and DD's. One bombardment run and your 200 fighters are toast. An overstuffed airbase in easy bombardment range is just asking for it. After the BB's level the island my carriers/LBA hit the island to keep you down.

But you put your US slow BBs there, and then you force him to come out and meet you. This happened at Koepang, the 3 British Resolution class were in the harbour. He wasnt taking Koepang without sinking those, he tried to use KB to do it, and while he heavily damaged all three, KB was mulched.


I do think logistically it would be tough, you'd have to pack everything you need into your invasion force - the combat troops, plenty of supplies - and aircraft!

[moses]

This will work in the DEI because you have supporting bases. At Midway you have one spot. How can you leave BB's there once you're carriers leave?
KB shows and sinks everything.

[EUBanana]

ORIGINAL: moses

This will work in the DEI because you have supporting bases. At Midway you have one spot. How can you leave BB's there once you're carriers leave?
KB shows and sinks everything.

No, what you do is you put two 72 fighter squadrons onto AKs - Warhawks would be absolutely ideal - and enough baseforces and supplies to fly those without needing an immediate resupply.

Then you put two or three battleships in the harbour and your CVs can then, in theory, go (tho presumably you'll need em about to support your invasion still).

If he attacks with a surface force any bombardment he does is going to be very dicey, a bombardment TF is not as effective as a surface combat TF, and all he has to do is be slowed down a bit and suffer from the, say, 50 torpedo bombers you place there.

If he attacks with KB, his Vals are useless against a battleship so half his strike force is discounted immediately. And his pilots are precious, whereas the US Warhawks or whatever you have are not. He'll mess the battleships up to be sure, but then it'll be KB which is depleted and demoralised, not the US carriers.


...as mentioned this supposes you can get all of the above components into place in a very short timeframe which is by no means certain.

[moses]

This really seems to be placing yourself in the worst possible tactical situation. I would really love to see it.

I would be more then happy to fight an even surface battle there. My cripples have nearby bases. You're damaged ships are as good as sunk.

In the air your fighters may inflict heavy losses but once my bombers hit those packed airfields you will lose heavily as well.

The key thing to remember though is that if I can shut it down your single base once its all over. You'll never reopen that base again as I will just keep pounding it. You're CAP has to fly every day where I only have to mass my carriers at Midway for one day. 6 carriers worth of zero's and bombers will not be stopped by a couple hundred allied fighters. It will be a bloody day but in the end the base will be closed.


I'm not sure that taking PH is a good strategy or worth the cost to Japan. But if you employ this strategy then I'd be happy I took PH. [:)] I would think that Japan holds PH the allies would be better off attacking elsewhere.

[Feinder]

Maybe I mis-read something.

Are you saying that as an Allied player who has lost PH, you're going to bypass the HI, and just invade Midway?

I'm not sure I'm understanding that right. HOW would you manage to invade Midway, if PH is still in enemy hands? You're talking about sending an invasion from either the West Coast or Alaska, to invade Midway. That's a LONG way to go. And the Japanese planes and ships in the HI are just gonna sit there and let you take it?

All I'll say is, "Good luck with that."

-F-