time to say goodby to hexes and counters

[Yogi Yohan]

I think it is past time that someone (read: Matrix! ) does an operational scale wargame that finally dispenses with hexes and counters. I'm thinking on something along the lines of the system used in "Patriot" (which unfortunately was an extremly boring and uninteresting game, but that does not take away the merits of the game system). Units had frontages and boundaries that could be set by the player.

This system was really interesting, and had it been coupled with a good AI, user-friendly interface and set in a war whose outcome was not a foregone conclusion (the Gulf war) it would have made for a very good game. Unfortunately it was not, so it wasn't .

What is the main reason that you keep adhering to hexes and counters? Don't you think it is time to cast of the limitations of board games when designing computer wargames?

(I do love your work do date, but one can always lust for more, right?)




[This message has been edited by Yogi Yohan (edited February 14, 2001).]

[Ed Cogburn]

Originally posted by Yogi Yohan:
I think it is past time that someone (read: Matrix! ) does an operational scale wargame that finally dispenses with hexes and counters.

They *are* doing an operational scale game, and it includes hexes and counters: BattleLine.

Such a game was attempted, but they apparently had so many problems with it that it never materialized and has become a famous example of vaporware: Road to Moscow.

I don't mind a game without hexes and counters, but I won't buy a game whose only feature is an absence of hexagons. If they can make it work in a good game, great, if not, I'll still buy hexes and counters.

[Paul Goodman]

TalonSoft certainly has done all their games with the ability to turn the hex system off. TOAW was of operational level and on some of the larger scenarios, the "board" was strategic is size, if not function. However, does anyone play TOAW with the hexes turned off. I doubt it. I couldn't figure out what I was doing, where I could go, how the units would fit in the terrain without the hexes. I think turn-based games and hexes are inseparable.

Paul

[Les_the_Sarge_9_1]

NO HEXES!!
why not
I mean why are they such a pain?

I have had trouble with many aspects of many games in the past, but hexes?

I am assuming that you perceive the computational power of computers to be endless and the AI better than humanly possible.

The hexes are not there for any small reason, they give the game structure. Wargames are about accuracy. If you want vague, I suggest playing a paper and pencil rolegame with people that have no idea how to play the game. You will get all the vague qualitities you can stomache.
Most good games will allow you to remove the hex grid from sight if it makes for to much of an eyesore. But forget trying to remove it from the design. Not worth the effort.

Me I would point you in the direction of those brain dead, chase em with the mouse nightmares, pretending to be wargames designs if you cant handle our beloved hexes.

Although I have no reason to assume that even they have no built in grid work determining how fast and far units can go built into the engine

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Winning all the time is as boring as losing all the time

[Yogi Yohan]

I am assuming that you perceive the computational power of computers to be endless and the AI better than humanly possible.

No I do not. I have seen wargames done without hexes many years ago (Harpoon II, Patriot) so I can't see any reason why that should be beyond technology today.

Wargames are about accuracy.

I agree, that's why I think hexes should belong to the past. A hex is nothing but an abstraction, a simplification of terrain. Surely, computers have the ability to go beyond such coarse abstractions. Look at many of the Real-time strategy games (I'm no fan of the genre, but still), they seem to be able to handle terrain in a less abstract manner...

Most good games will allow you to remove the hex grid from sight if it makes for to much of an eyesore. But forget trying to remove it from the design. Not worth the effort.

Its not an aestethic matter, its about game design. Basicly, the hex is a leftover from board games. A computer does not need to count hexes to determine distance.

Me I would point you in the direction of those brain dead, chase em with the mouse nightmares, pretending to be wargames designs if you cant handle our beloved hexes.

You're referring to RTS I presume? Most stink, although the genre has possibilites. The Harpoon series are real-time games, even if you can set the time speed down to 1 sec real time=1 sec game time, or even stop the clock.

Although I have no reason to assume that even they have no built in grid work determining how fast and far units can go built into the engine

Perhaps they do, but these grids are finer ie less abstracted and so more accurate. And wargaming is about accuracy...


[This message has been edited by Yogi Yohan (edited February 19, 2001).]

[danielrg]

I am presently on a fools quest to find out what is happening with Road To Moscow. You can visit the party over at the Wargamer discussion board if you like.

I am amazed and surprised by the number of people who still remember the game and who site it as the "holy grail" of wargames.

I really wish someone could get a hold of Mr. Billings and find out what he is doing. I have a feeling that he is still plugging away on weekends. Wish us luck, and drop by to lend your support. (the hope being that if enough people talk about someone might notice).

Daniel

[Ed Cogburn]

Originally posted by danielrg:
I am presently on a fools quest to find out what is happening with Road To Moscow. You can visit the party over at the Wargamer discussion board if you like.

Daniel, if you hear any recent scuttlebut, please come back here and tell us. I've been dreaming about RtM ever since I first saw its screenshots. I'm praying its not dead, just in a coma right now. [fingers crossed]

[Reg]

I'm not sure what the argument is here.

Hexes are definitely a carry over from the board game days where there was no other (no better??) way of regulating movement and unit positioning on a map.

Hexes for a computer do not simplify things, they complicate things as the internal calculations are far more easily done with coordinates and trigonometry. These coordinates my be set as course or fine as the designer requires though the user may not see this.

Hexes limit formations (fronts) to six directions. What about the classic kink in the front line that allows your opponent to get on three sides of one hex?? In reality the line would be dressed in a straight line at a direction offset from 60 degrees. If you want an enclave that you can surround on three sides, you should have to create one with gameplay and not expect one to emerge from the hexgrid.

In my opinion, hexes work but they are not ideal. If the opportunity arises where they can be replaced with something better, I think they should be. Computers just open up possibilities.

Reg.

[danielr_g]

There is Rumor of progress!!! <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0">

I posted some of the yahoogroups conversation on wargamer.com.

(EDIT <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/r2m/polls

Originally posted by Ed Cogburn:



Daniel, if you hear any recent scuttlebut, please come back here and tell us. I've been dreaming about RtM ever since I first saw its screenshots. I'm praying its not dead, just in a coma right now. [fingers crossed]

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[ November 06, 2001: Message edited by: danielr_g ]</p>

[danscan]

I think he is right. Hexs are left overs. idealy lines actuall intermingle with each other in real war. So here is an Idea grid like game play were you plot the center point of the unit or the shape of the unit. Then the further it goes out form that center point the less control over that point in the grid.

Get it? no don't worry I just thought it up.

[Resisti]

Yogi, try to have a look at the free demo of Combat Mission.
It is a no_hexes_in_the_game_engine style game.
I dont like it, but maybe can fit with your wishes.

[Drex]

I think Panzer Elite (tank simulation) is also no hexes.

[Scorpion_sk]

"Me I would point you in the direction of those brain dead, chase em with the mouse nightmares, pretending to be wargames designs if you cant handle our beloved hexes."

Oh, you mean games like Sid Meier´s Gettysburg! and Antietam!, the Close Combat series (H2H) and Shogun: Total War?

REAL-TIME should not be synonymous with cloned rubbish like Dune2 and C&C. (Actually they played out quite ok when they were released, but the novelty has worn off)

I agree about hexes being just a board game leftover, used to appease old grogs (like Les put it: our beloved hexes) (not to mention some of the designers might prefer them, too).

A game with hexes can be perfectly playable and good, (like SPWAW) but the hex system does not make any game better.
We´re just familiar with them.

[Dave R]

All the guys that have spoken out against hex based games have made good points, but there is one point that has been overlooked.
Love them or hate them but hex/turn based games have developed into a game genre in their own right.
Ok, they came about by necessity in pre computer days. They may be stylized and limit reality, but then again, so does chess! And like chess, they have their followers who, no matter how powerful computers become, will always enjoy them over real time games.
I enjoy both real time games and turn based games, some people don't. It doesn't make one style better or worse then the other, just different. Difference is variaty and variety gives us more options to choose from