The Cautionaries 1.2: Capt (J) vs Rysyonok (A), Game 1

[Rysyonok]

San Jose Courier, July 12, 1922

USN SS R-21 hits TK Mirii Maru (Shell hits 1, Torpedo hits 1) near Bataan.

The first battle of Baker Island

Japanese: CA Kurama CA Ibuki CA Ikoma (all three are pre-WWI BCs with 4x12" guns), CA Iwate CA Asama CA Tokiwa CA Yakumo (RJW veterans) DD Keyaki DD Maki DD Momi DD Kaya.

Americans: 41 DD split into 5 squadrons.

Despite it being a night battle, only 4 torpedoes hit target: CA Ibuki (1) DD Keyaki (2) DD Momi (1)

IJN lost DDs Keyaki and Momi, USN - DD Kilty.

[Rysyonok]

San Jose Courier, July 15, 1922

IJN SS No. 39 catches TK Gertrude Kellogg (Torpedo hits 1 then again Torpedo hits 1) west of Midway.

San Jose Courier, July 16, 1922

Japanese capture Puerto Princessa.

San Jose Courier, July 17, 1922

IJN SS No. 18 hits TK Manatawny (Torpedo hits 1) west of Midway.

USN SS R-14 hits TK Rikko Maru (Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage) northeast of Luzon.

USN SS R-12 scores its second hit: AK Nissyu Maru (Shell hits 8, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage) southwest of Luzon.

USN SS R-25 scores its second hit: AK Akiura Maru (Torpedo hits 1) southwest of Luzon.

USN SS R-19 hits AK Momoha Maru (Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage) off Bataan.

San Jose Courier, July 18, 1922

USN SS R-1 attacks AK Tottori Maru (Shell hits 2, Torpedo hits 1, on fire) off Bataan.

USN SS S-6 earns its "ace" strips hitting AK Nitii Maru (Torpedo hits 1) north of Luzon. Americans now have 4 SS with 5 or more hits.

USN SS R-7 torpedoes AK Tottori Maru (Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage) off Bataan.

USN SS R-21 gets its second hit: AK Akiura Maru (Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage) off Puerto Princessa.

USN SS R-22 earns its second hit: AK Toyooka Maru (Shell hits 4, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage) west of Luzon.

[Rysyonok]

San Jose Courier, July 19, 1922

USN SS R-2 gets its second hit - AK Nitii Maru (Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage) west of Luzon.

USN SS R-23 gets its second hit - AK Toyooka Maru (Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage) near Taytay.

IJN SS No. 27 hits USN PC Eagle 13 (Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage) near Johnston Island.

USN SS R-4 hits AK Nankai Maru (Shell hits 6, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage) west of Luzon.

San Jose Courier, July 20, 1922

USN SS R-26 earns its fourth hit - AK Nitimei Maru (Shell hits 5) north of Luzon.

San Jose Courier, July 21, 1922

IJN SS UB-125 (O6) hits AS Beaver (Torpedo hits 1, on fire) near Baker Island. Escorts catch up to UB-125, landing 2 charges on her and setting her ablaze.

[Rysyonok]

San Jose Courier, July 22, 1922

Japanese capture Tawi Tawi.

The second battle of Baker Island

Japanese: BB Katori (post-RJW pre-dreadnought, 4x12") BB Hizen (ex-Russian Retvizan, 4x12") CL Kiso (ocean scout, 7x140mm) DD Yayoi DD Oite DD Hibicki DD Hayakaze

Americans: 40 DD split into 4 squadrons.

Once Hizen eats 4 torpedoes and Katori - 5, the outcome is clear. All Japanese forces are sunk. USN loses one DD in the battle and one scuttled afterwards with 99 damage.



(HIJMS Kashima, sister of HIJMS Katori)

[Rysyonok]

San Jose Courier, July 23, 1922

IJN SS No. 29 hits PC Eagle 3 (Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage), getting 3 depth charges in return near Johnston Island.

San Jose Courier, July 24, 1922

USN SS R-15 hits AP Tatuta Maru (Torpedo hits 1) west of Luzon.

San Jose Courier, July 25, 1922

IJA enginer squad lands in San Jose, only to find 2 full-strength American regiments. Despite best American efforts, Japanese escape the next night. 241 body is found in the morning.

USN SS R-25 earns its second hit - AP Aki Maru (Torpedo hits 1, on fire) right off San Jose.

[Rysyonok]

Highest points first.

[jwilkerson]

The second battle of Baker Island

Japanese: BB Katori (post-RJW pre-dreadnought, 4x12") BB Hizen (ex-Russian Retvizan, 4x12") CL Kiso (ocean scout, 7x140mm) DD Yayoi DD Oite DD Hibicki DD Hayakaze

Americans: 40 DD split into 4 squadrons.

Once Hizen eats 4 torpedoes and Katori - 5, the outcome is clear. All Japanese forces are sunk. USN loses one DD in the battle and one scuttled afterwards with 99 damage.

Massed destroyers looks like a be-all end-all tactic ... hum ... was this daylight or night action ? And wonder if it would matter ( it should ! )

[Pkunzipper]

You as USA are having much more success than me against String in our current PBEM (but we are still in June), where he easily won any naval battle with my Philippino naval forces...

I have a question... US starts the game with 2 DM at Manila, after the first mission 1 of them could not be reloaded with mines anymore, while the other (both on the same TF, with a MLE docked at Manila) operated normally...
Did you noticed anything similar in your game?

[Rysyonok]

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson
Massed destroyers looks like a be-all end-all tactic ... hum ... was this daylight or night action ? And wonder if it would matter ( it should ! )

Both battles were night actions. Japanese surprised Americans in the first battle a few times and Americans surprised Japanese in the second.

The biggest difference was squad sizes. I respect Tankerace's tutorial... but 8 DD just doesn't cut it. As soon as I switched to 10 DD squads, I started delivering punches. True, not all 10 can fire at the same time. But 10 sets of torpedoes in a battle is better than 8.

Following this success I am seriously considering invasion of Marianas strictly off of DDs. 70-80 at a time backed by MSWs.

[Rysyonok]

ORIGINAL: Pkunzipper

You as USA are having much more success than me against String in our current PBEM (but we are still in June), where he easily won any naval battle with my Philippino naval forces...

I have a question... US starts the game with 2 DM at Manila, after the first mission 1 of them could not be reloaded with mines anymore, while the other (both on the same TF, with a MLE docked at Manila) operated normally...
Did you noticed anything similar in your game?

Where did you find the MLE? In Cautionaries there's an AS in Manila, that's all.

And thank you I would have done even better had I not placed all starting subs in that region in one hex. Needless to say, all my consecutive games have no more than 1 SS in a hex. Plus, it's all in the numbers: every single American sub, save for H's, is in the Philippines. I am bound to score some hits (and lost every third on the voyage home once the islands fall altogether and I can't resupply them, but that's a totally different matter)

[jwilkerson]

Following this success I am seriously considering invasion of Marianas strictly off of DDs. 70-80 at a time backed by MSWs.

While it is of course prefectly ok for you to do this in your game .. I would suggest that if it turns out ( as it seems that it will ) that massed DDs can overwhelm any and all opposition and "clear the seas" .. then we will need to look at fixing that. If this tactic really was the be-all end-all naval tactic ... I imagine the real navies would've discovered it and acted accordingly. Certainly the WWII battle of Java Sea which saw the Japanese launching massive torpedo attacks ( which were not decisive ) and Jutland which also saw DDs attempting to perform there mission in a fleet action are not indicative of the "DDs will smash all" concept. At Suraigo straits, there is a bit more of a case, but the manuver room for the Japanese ships was very resticted. So I at least start from a position of scepticism as to whether this tactic would work as well as it seems to in real life.

But I have noticed that it is unwise to risk Japanese BBs against US DDs in the PI early on ... send in the "expendables" was my concept in the current game. In the mean time I've tried to "train up" the BBs to get them to the point where in a night action that are more or less equal to the DDs ( in exp ). But based on your results, this might not help enough. And if it comes down to a "battle between the DDs" .. the USN has that one won before it starts. The Japanese are out numbered about 5:1 in real DDs from the start ... and it doesn't get any better.

So you may have found a "system breaker" .. but it can probably be fixed by reducing the power of the DDD torpedoes. That is probably where I'd start. But for now continue on ... let's watch some more examples and see if this seems to be confirmed.

[Rysyonok]

San Jose Courier, July 27, 1922

IJN SS No. 28 eats 6 depth charges and catches on fire near Baker island.

[Rysyonok]

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

Following this success I am seriously considering invasion of Marianas strictly off of DDs. 70-80 at a time backed by MSWs.

While it is of course prefectly ok for you to do this in your game .. I would suggest that if it turns out ( as it seems that it will ) that massed DDs can overwhelm any and all opposition and "clear the seas" .. then we will need to look at fixing that. If this tactic really was the be-all end-all naval tactic ... I imagine the real navies would've discovered it and acted accordingly. Certainly the WWII battle of Java Sea which saw the Japanese launching massive torpedo attacks ( which were not decisive ) and Jutland which also saw DDs attempting to perform there mission in a fleet action are not indicative of the "DDs will smash all" concept. At Suraigo straits, there is a bit more of a case, but the manuver room for the Japanese ships was very resticted. So I at least start from a position of scepticism as to whether this tactic would work as well as it seems to in real life.

But I have noticed that it is unwise to risk Japanese BBs against US DDs in the PI early on ... send in the "expendables" was my concept in the current game. In the mean time I've tried to "train up" the BBs to get them to the point where in a night action that are more or less equal to the DDs ( in exp ). But based on your results, this might not help enough. And if it comes down to a "battle between the DDs" .. the USN has that one won before it starts. The Japanese are out numbered about 5:1 in real DDs from the start ... and it doesn't get any better.

So you may have found a "system breaker" .. but it can probably be fixed by reducing the power of the DDD torpedoes. That is probably where I'd start. But for now continue on ... let's watch some more examples and see if this seems to be confirmed.

=) If what I am going is going to make the scenario better, then why not

But seriously, what other options do I have? I got no CAs. And my AKs are so few in numbers I can barely keep my bases in supply... I know I am getting a whole bunch of them in a few months though.

And Great White Fleet is *still* being repaired... once I saw no progress done anymore in San Diego (the damage numbers froze) I moved the ships to Mare Island... let's see if it helps.

[Pkunzipper]

ORIGINAL: Rysyonok

Where did you find the MLE? In Cautionaries there's an AS in Manila, that's all.

And thank you I would have done even better had I not placed all starting subs in that region in one hex. Needless to say, all my consecutive games have no more than 1 SS in a hex. Plus, it's all in the numbers: every single American sub, save for H's, is in the Philippines. I am bound to score some hits (and lost every third on the voyage home once the islands fall altogether and I can't resupply them, but that's a totally different matter)

Perhaps we are playing 2 different versions of Cautionaries (mine is 1.4).
USA starts the game with a MLE in Manila and "only" 13 subs in Manila (a lot more is based in the West Coast)...
Maybe Jwilkerson can say something abotu this...

[Rysyonok]

P.S. Japanese were asking for it in the second battle though. All of my DDs were on ASW missions - not reacting to enemy fleets.

P.P.S. Only 4 of 7 squadrons engaged.

[Rysyonok]

ORIGINAL: Pkunzipper

ORIGINAL: Rysyonok

Where did you find the MLE? In Cautionaries there's an AS in Manila, that's all.

And thank you I would have done even better had I not placed all starting subs in that region in one hex. Needless to say, all my consecutive games have no more than 1 SS in a hex. Plus, it's all in the numbers: every single American sub, save for H's, is in the Philippines. I am bound to score some hits (and lost every third on the voyage home once the islands fall altogether and I can't resupply them, but that's a totally different matter)

Perhaps we are playing 2 different versions of Cautionaries (mine is 1.4).
USA starts the game with a MLE in Manila and "only" 13 subs in Manila (a lot more is based in the West Coast)...
Maybe Jwilkerson can say something abotu this...

I have 1.3... no MLE. So I had no regrets when I threw DMs into battle.

And yup, you got it I sent all my West Coast subs into PI. Is it paying off?

[Pkunzipper]

Your SS are doing a great job!
Hope mine will behave like yours! But currently they got only a couple of MSW and an AK... only dud against warships...[:@]
Well, war is all but over! [;)]

[Rysyonok]

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

Following this success I am seriously considering invasion of Marianas strictly off of DDs. 70-80 at a time backed by MSWs.

While it is of course prefectly ok for you to do this in your game .. I would suggest that if it turns out ( as it seems that it will ) that massed DDs can overwhelm any and all opposition and "clear the seas" .. then we will need to look at fixing that. If this tactic really was the be-all end-all naval tactic ... I imagine the real navies would've discovered it and acted accordingly. Certainly the WWII battle of Java Sea which saw the Japanese launching massive torpedo attacks ( which were not decisive ) and Jutland which also saw DDs attempting to perform there mission in a fleet action are not indicative of the "DDs will smash all" concept. At Suraigo straits, there is a bit more of a case, but the manuver room for the Japanese ships was very resticted. So I at least start from a position of scepticism as to whether this tactic would work as well as it seems to in real life.

Something to consider... it takes 44 DDs to fast transport just one regiment of Hawaiian division. That's excluding supplies. Did I mention that by the time the last DD loads troops the first one is going to be out of fuel? =)

It look like DDs can do an excellent job on small islands, but it's still APs for major bases.

[Rysyonok]

ORIGINAL: Pkunzipper
Your SS are doing a great job!
Hope mine will behave like yours! But currently they got only a couple of MSW and an AK... only dud against warships...[:@]
Well, war is all but over! [;)]

Did you remember to go through the captains and choose 85+/85+ only for those submarines?

Let's look at the pre-game line-up:

S-3 Warder Naval 70 Aggression 50
S-4 Murphy Naval 60 Aggression 58
S-6 Willingham Naval 73 Aggression 57

Let's look at my line-up:

S-3 O'Kane Naval 90 Aggression 91 - 4 hits; had to be docked for a couple weeks due to damage, however
S-4 Fluckey Naval 87 Aggression 86 - 6 hits
S-6 Cutter Naval 84 Aggression 83 - 5 hit

[;)]

[jwilkerson]

ORIGINAL: Rysyonok

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

Following this success I am seriously considering invasion of Marianas strictly off of DDs. 70-80 at a time backed by MSWs.

While it is of course prefectly ok for you to do this in your game .. I would suggest that if it turns out ( as it seems that it will ) that massed DDs can overwhelm any and all opposition and "clear the seas" .. then we will need to look at fixing that. If this tactic really was the be-all end-all naval tactic ... I imagine the real navies would've discovered it and acted accordingly. Certainly the WWII battle of Java Sea which saw the Japanese launching massive torpedo attacks ( which were not decisive ) and Jutland which also saw DDs attempting to perform there mission in a fleet action are not indicative of the "DDs will smash all" concept. At Suraigo straits, there is a bit more of a case, but the manuver room for the Japanese ships was very resticted. So I at least start from a position of scepticism as to whether this tactic would work as well as it seems to in real life.

Something to consider... it takes 44 DDs to fast transport just one regiment of Hawaiian division. That's excluding supplies. Did I mention that by the time the last DD loads troops the first one is going to be out of fuel? =)

It look like DDs can do an excellent job on small islands, but it's still APs for major bases.

Fast transporting anything larger than a battalion should probably be questioned. And the distance should be very short, 1-2 days max.