Please provide a fuller explanation of "Naval Search"

[Pascal_slith]

This is for michaelm. Don't get me wrong, michaelm provides the BEST support that I have ever seen, above and beyond the call of duty. I just wanted to know more about his responses to my 'Naval Search' questions than he was able to provide in the Betas forum. Here is our dialogue in that thread so far.

ORIGINAL: michaelm

Search range actually can vary between AM and PM phases.
The drawing uses the minimum range of the player's max range and the normal range(with/out DTs).
The AM range is based on a 4-hour flight endurance, while the PM phase is to the full range if the plane didn't fly in the AM, otherwise the same 4-hour endurance.
[Bit too complicated for quick draw arc solution]
In WITP, this use to be a constant max hex range in both AM/PM phases from memory, based on 1/3 a/c max range and 1/10 a/c cruise speed.

ORIGINAL: michaelm

The PBY has range of 16 and 20 hex for normal and extended respectively.
The AM search range comes out to be 9 hex, and the PM search range to 16 IF no planes flew in the AM.
The AM search range can be increased by experience, though.

I guess the compromise was to keep the normal range as the 'average' range.

Here were my questions:

OK, this generates a few more questions. Sorry if I've opened a Pandora's Box....

1. So the 4-hour endurance for the AM search is 4 hours one way?

2. What determines how many planes fly in the AM as opposed to PM? What determines that NO planes fly in the AM? (If we can control the search arcs, why not add a percentage split choice of aircraft between AM and PM?

3. When you say 'average', do you mean the midpoint between the AM range and the full Extended Range (midpoint between 9 and 20 in your example leading to 16)?

4. Is the choice of 'Maximum Range", then, not the maximum range of the PM search but the point used for determining the midpoint of AM/Max Range for the PM search range?

I understand that 'Normal Range' and 'Extended Range' are payload dependent. Normal Range is for a full weapons payload. Extended Range is for a reduced payload. In the case of Naval Searches, as most units on that mission used reduced payloads (e.g. SBDs carried 500lbers) I would expect that the choice of "Maximum Range" would be the limiting factor for search ranges in the PM at least.
[\quote]

Unfortunately, the tech support thread for the Betas got deluged with a whole other bunch of issues, so I decided to separate this question into a new thread.

Can michaelm or any of the developers give a more complete explanation of how the Naval Search works? I thought the questions I asked would have led to a more complete answer.

Thanks.

[michaelm75au]

1. So the 4-hour endurance for the AM search is 4 hours one way?

Yes

2. What determines how many planes fly in the AM as opposed to PM? What determines that NO planes fly in the AM? (If we can control the search arcs, why not add a percentage split choice of aircraft between AM and PM?

The normal % assigned to search/asw. If 50% are allocated to search, then 50% of the ready planes will fly AM and 50% in PM.
There is no way for the player to control how many planes fly AM or PM, or how many fly long-range or short-range searches.
Due to the game limitations, search planes will fly out to the max range or the 4-hour endurance range (whichever is smaller) in the AM.
However, there is also the possibility that the plane may fly further than this based on experience or skill. It is fairly random. If it does, then the plane is unlikely to fly in the PM (assume that it is still flying and radioed back any sighting report).
The PM range is the minimum of either the extended range (if the group did not previously move bases) or the 4-hour endurance, and the max range.

3. When you say 'average', do you mean the midpoint between the AM range and the full Extended Range (midpoint between 9 and 20 in your example leading to 16)?

For purposes of drawing the arcs, the normal flight range is used as the 'average'. Some searches could be further and some less than this. The actual search range is determined as part of the search resolution phase.

4. Is the choice of 'Maximum Range", then, not the maximum range of the PM search but the point used for determining the midpoint of AM/Max Range for the PM search range?

The setting of 'Maximum range' limits a plane to that range. If the mission range is less than that, then it does not come into play. When searching, it would be better to set the max range to a less than the full extended range as this would improve any chances of detecting ships - less area to cover but a higher search density in a sense.

[Pascal_slith]

Thank you very much, michaelm.

I have one final question on your response.

You said: 'The PM range is the minimum of either the extended range (if the group did not previously move bases) or the 4-hour endurance, and the max range.'

This is a little confusing. Assuming the group did not move bases, do you mean the minimum of either 1. the extended range or 2. the mid-point between the 4-hour endurance and the max range? Or do you mean there are 3 terms and it is the minimum of either 1. the extended range, 2. the 4-hour endurance, or 3. the max range?

[michaelm75au]

ORIGINAL: Pascal

Thank you very much, michaelm.

I have one final question on your response.

You said: 'The PM range is the minimum of either the extended range (if the group did not previously move bases) or the 4-hour endurance, and the max range.'

This is a little confusing. Assuming the group did not move bases, do you mean the minimum of either 1. the extended range or 2. the mid-point between the 4-hour endurance and the max range? Or do you mean there are 3 terms and it is the minimum of either 1. the extended range, 2. the 4-hour endurance, or 3. the max range?

If the group moved:
PM range is minimum of the 4-hour endurance range and the max range.

If the group did not move:
PM range is minimum of the extended and the max range.

[Halsey]

While we are on the naval search thing...

On night naval search,only seaplanes can search above 20% availability.
Why can't land based VPB's and such type of groups search above the 20% limit?

[Pascal_slith]

ORIGINAL: michaelm

ORIGINAL: Pascal

Thank you very much, michaelm.

I have one final question on your response.

You said: 'The PM range is the minimum of either the extended range (if the group did not previously move bases) or the 4-hour endurance, and the max range.'

This is a little confusing. Assuming the group did not move bases, do you mean the minimum of either 1. the extended range or 2. the mid-point between the 4-hour endurance and the max range? Or do you mean there are 3 terms and it is the minimum of either 1. the extended range, 2. the 4-hour endurance, or 3. the max range?

If the group moved:
PM range is minimum of the 4-hour endurance range and the max range.

If the group did not move:
PM range is minimum of the extended and the max range.

Thanks!

[michaelm75au]

ORIGINAL: Halsey

While we are on the naval search thing...

On night naval search,only seaplanes can search above 20% availability.
Why can't land based VPB's and such type of groups search above the 20% limit?

What 20% limit are you referring to??

[Halsey]

The % of aircraft flying is limited to 20% for non seaplane LBA operforming night naval search.

The restriction doesn't affect seaplanes performing the same night search mission.

[michaelm75au]

There is a check on experience/morale of planes flying at night that will lower the number by 25%. This only applies when more than 3 planes are flying, otherwise 3 or less plane groups would never fly.

Don't remember any specific 20% limit to night missions.

[Halsey]

Here's a screenshot.

Can't allocate % to search, but if you go to the complete air unit listing for the airfield it shows 20% allocated to the mission.

So the unit info screen shows no allocation, but in reality it is 20% allocation that can only be seen on the airfield unit listing.

[michaelm75au]

ORIGINAL: Halsey

Here's a screenshot.

Can't allocate % to search, but if you go to the complete air unit listing for the airfield it shows 20% allocated to the mission.

So the unit info screen shows no allocation, but in reality it is 20% allocation that can only be seen on the airfield unit listing.

That is a different problem. The patrol levels are not showing rather than it is limited to 20%.

I'm not sure if a non-patrol unit should be flying night search anyway.

[Alfred]

ORIGINAL: michaelm

ORIGINAL: Halsey

Here's a screenshot.

Can't allocate % to search, but if you go to the complete air unit listing for the airfield it shows 20% allocated to the mission.

So the unit info screen shows no allocation, but in reality it is 20% allocation that can only be seen on the airfield unit listing.

That is a different problem. The patrol levels are not showing rather than it is limited to 20%.

I'm not sure if a non-patrol unit should be flying night search anyway.

According to the chart on page 159 of the manual, no plane is authorised to fly night naval search missions.

Alfred

[michaelm75au]

Table is correct in principle.
There is a few exceptions to that original list.
1. An aircraft with ground search (ie non-air search) radar can perform night search.  (was there from release)
2. Ship-based float planes can fly night RECON missions (enabled for night bombardments)

The ability to use these get enabled on the group screen as required.

[edit]
That is the problem. The search levels are not being show despite mission being enabled due to plane having ground radar.

[Pascal_slith]

ORIGINAL: michaelm

Table is correct in principle.
There is a few exceptions to that original list.
1. An aircraft with ground search (ie non-air search) radar can perform night search.  (was there from release)
2. Ship-based float planes can fly night RECON missions (enabled for night bombardments)

The ability to use these get enabled on the group screen as required.

[edit]
That is the problem. The search levels are not being show despite mission being enabled due to plane having ground radar.

This is all great support by you, michaelm, as always. You're a real gem.

Thanks for the p9 Beta update also.

[michaelm75au]

ORIGINAL: michaelm

Table is correct in principle.
There is a few exceptions to that original list.
1. An aircraft with ground search (ie non-air search) radar can perform night search.  (was there from release)
2. Ship-based float planes can fly night RECON missions (enabled for night bombardments)

The ability to use these get enabled on the group screen as required.

[edit]
That is the problem. The search levels are not being show despite mission being enabled due to plane having ground radar.

I'll post an updated installer later today with that simple fix in it.

[Halsey]

These navy units are patrol bombers, Venturas, PB4Ys, and Harpoons.
Those were the missions they actually flew.[;)]