CHS 2.04 475th FG

[Kereguelen]

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

Regarding the Spitfire Vb and possible changes:

ORIGINAL: timtom
I can think of four solutions, other than sleeping dogs:

1) Include an Oz Spit

Not at this late stage. Maybe for a future update (and this is the option I already think is the best in the long run).

2) Cut the Spit Vb out of the SEAC RAF UP, effectively turning the Vb into the Oz Spit. The Spit VIII arrives 10/43.

I thought of that as well, but it would depend on how many Vb vs VIII were used in SEAC. I don't know the answer to that question.

3) Have the sqds in Q arrive overstrength. As long as the overstrength aircraft are assigned as ready and not damaged, they'll revert to reserve status. When the sqd moves, the reserve aircraft are left behind as a fragment, which can either be disbanded or left to chase after the mother unit. AFAIK, it doesn't greater supersize units, only units with lots of pilots. Obviously the excess aircraft could be assigned other units, but the total no. of aircraft will remain the same.

An interesting idea but a bit too contrived for my tastes.

4) Lower the Spit Vb replacement rate.

My preference, instead of doing this, would be to move the Spit Vb arrival date from 6/42, which doesn't seem to be supported at all for any air force (as I already mentioned above), to 1/43. Not a perfect solution, but a step in the right direction, and simple to make.

Andrew

Do all this and put 11 Spitfire Vb in the pool at start (for No. 457 RAAF)...

[worr]

For the record there were no Spitfires in the 475th FG.

[timtom]

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen

Do all this and put 11 Spitfire Vb in the pool at start (for No. 457 RAAF)...

Ohh, clever kitten - Why didn't I think of this?!

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: timtom

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen

Do all this and put 11 Spitfire Vb in the pool at start (for No. 457 RAAF)...

Ohh, clever kitten - Why didn't I think of this?!

Unfortunately, if you have a starting pool for aircraft that are available later in a scenario, the pool itself is available from the start of the scenario for the purposes of upgrading an air unit.

Andrew

[timtom]

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

Unfortunately, if you have a starting pool for aircraft that are available later in a scenario, the pool itself is available from the start of the scenario for the purposes of upgrading an air unit.

Andrew

Hence the 11 aircraft only, no?

[Kereguelen]

ORIGINAL: timtom

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

Unfortunately, if you have a starting pool for aircraft that are available later in a scenario, the pool itself is available from the start of the scenario for the purposes of upgrading an air unit.

Andrew

Hence the 11 aircraft only, no?

Yes, this is the reason for allocating 11 aircraft - but I'm not certain if one needs to actually have the necessary aircraft in the pool when a squadron arrives or if those planes come with the arriving group (carrier groups come with the planes allocated to them in the editor, but other groups?). Otherwise one would have to put 16 planes in the pool and they would be available at start (as Andrew stated).

K

[Andrew Brown]

Three RAAF squadrons operated Spit Vbs in early 1943 - 457, 452 and 79 Squadrons.

Andrew

[Kereguelen]

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

Three RAAF squadrons operated Spit Vbs in early 1943 - 457, 452 and 79 Squadrons.

Andrew

Yes, but only No. 457 did so in 1942.

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen
Yes, but only No. 457 did so in 1942.

OK, I see. I think 457 Squadron should appear later than it currently does. Maybe appearing on map in Sydney in September 42, as I believe they didn't have Spits again until then. And adding a small number of aircraft to the pool should be OK as well. Something for the next CHS update (should there be one).

Andrew

[worr]

Andrew.

I just looked at the datbase for 2.05. The 475th is back in San Fransico with a July arrival date in 1943....with 16 aircraft. P38F not G.

[worr]

They also lost their group commander. Prentice, G. W.

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: worr

Andrew.

I just looked at the datbase for 2.05. The 475th is back in San Fransico with a July arrival date in 1943....with 16 aircraft. P38F not G.

I still see the 431st, 432nd and 433rd Squadrons in Brisbane with 2 x P-38G? Are you sure you are looking at the right squadrons?

Andrew

[worr]

My mistake...was looking at the 329th FG...331st etc.

I still think the 2 pilot thing is going to wash out this squadron...what about just damaged aircraft instead?

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: worr
I still think the 2 pilot thing is going to wash out this squadron...what about just damaged aircraft instead?

I want to test this too see how it is handled, but I haven't had time to do that yet.

Andrew

[worr]

Think of it this way...before (prior 2.4) these squadrons arrived in the USA April 1943 with 16 aircraft and pilots ready to go. All you had to do was ferry the long range fighter to the PTO and be in action that same month. You would have to ferry it (range 29) down through Dutch Harbor to Midway. You could have it in combat by May 1943 with a full compliment of aircraft and pilots.
 
Now we have a squadron that arrives in July 1943 with two aircraft, but in Brisbane. Granted, what we had before was generous. But this is a big step in the other direction. Not only much later into action, but with lower quality pilots. This was a fighter group drawn from experienced fighter pilot veterans...and a very hot fighter group in the war.
 

[timtom]

IMO the group should either arrive early in the US without aircraft or late in Oz with aircraft.

Further, whatever solution is applied to 475th Fighter Group should probably also be applied to 460th Fighter Squadron, which was in similar circumstances.

Indeed there are probably numerous other USAAF units, given their activation date as their arrival date, which were in paper units.

[worr]

Agreed. Late full; early empty.
 
As for the 460th FS...its parent FG was formed in the sates.
 
Here is the thing with the 460th FS Previous to CHS 2.X this particular squadron came too early. April 17, 1943. It was the earliess P-47 group in theater...but it was never there that early. Looking at the data base it was moved back to July 1944. 
 
This is my fault. I suggested 11/15/44...but I meant to suggest 11/17/43. Here are my original notes with the correction. It will make more sense now.
 
So I would suggest two changes: 11/15/43 as arrival date and P-47D as aircraft type.
 
[font="times new roman"]348th FG (activated 9/30/42 US; assigned 5th AF SWPAC; Col Neel E Kearby CMOH; [/font]
[font="times new roman"] [/font]
[font="times new roman"]460th FS            47D                 4/17/43            US                   SWPAC         12/4/24 *[/font]
[font="times new roman"] [/font]
[font="times new roman"]340th FS            47C                 5/9/43              US                   SWPAC         12/4/24[/font]
[font="times new roman"] [/font]
[font="times new roman"]341st FS            47C                 5/9/43              US                   SWPAC         12/4/24[/font]
[font="times new roman"] [/font]
342nd                     47C                 5/9/43              US                   SWPAC         12/4/24
 
* Fighter groups didn’t receive their fourth squadrons until later in the war. This unit was first involved in Leyte Gulf 1/44. Push back to 11/15/43.. This will mean waiting another month for first P-47 squadron in game.
 
 
 
 

[timtom]

According to Combat Squadrons of the Air Force , 460 FS was formed from 1st Airdrome Squadron, a service unit (I take it) with 5th Air Force. Combat Squadrons of the Air Force places 1st Airdrome Squadron in Oz from 430521.

Further:

"Stanaway, in his book, Kearby’s Thunderbolts, gives the following explanation of the formation of the 460th Fighter Squadron: In July (1944) the 348th became the only Group in the Southwest Pacific with four operational squadrons when the 460th Fighter Squadron arrived from the States with an untested cadre of pilots and ground crews.

Bill Dunham was selected to command the “Black Rams”, as the 460th became known. Dunham brought Captains George Orr and Bob Sutcliffe and Lieutenants Willis Cooley, Frank Russo and DeWitt Searles from the 342nd. Bill Carter, Wallace Harding and Richard Foster came from the 340th while the 341st sent Charles Cronk, George Della, Frank Morrison and James Curran. [13 pilots from 348 FG]

...

"As of the 28th of August, 1944, 24 new pilots from the pool at Port Moresby, New Guinea, had been chosen and assigned to the new 460th Fighter Squadron...We started training missions with the cadre of pilots from other squadrons who . . . had the purpose of teaching us the ropes of flying combat. And they did a wonderful job."

http://www.pacificwrecks.com/aircraft/p ... arter.html

Together this would suggest to me that at least part of both the flying- and non-flying personel were drawn from within theatre.

[worr]

I believe you will find this factored into the pool rate for pilot experience. This is how late war squadrons were typically formed.

The 475th was a unique set up. And did have a proven record.

Unlike the 475th FG, the 460th FS was definately formed in the states...first stationed in Syracuse, NY then Biggs Field Texas through much of 1943. The complexity, however, is the 460th FS had a former life, and then a life as attached to the 348th FG. Before that attachment it was transfered to the pacific as a training squadron. While in theater it was then formally made a combat squadron attached to the 348th.

Tom, there are a lot of missing squadrons from 1944 onwards. And the original game did FGs not FSs...so the pressure on slots is even greater now. 

I think the game concentrates on the start up and the turning of the tide ponit--1943. And seeks to get that right. But looses some finesse beyond that.

[timtom]

ORIGINAL: worr

Tom, there are a lot of missing squadrons from 1944 onwards. And the original game did FGs not FSs...so the pressure on slots is even greater now. 

Interesting...care to give an example?

About the 460 FS, - it's not that I don't believe you, but on principle I'll have to ask as to the source.

And a general question: Does anyone have any info about Commonwealth (incl. RAF) recon sqds?