OT?: Pete Rose Admits to Betting On His Own Team

[robpost3]

That's just a blanket statement to cover their worthless hides.

...agreed...
...Like I said before; I wonder who Mr. Rose pissed off perhaps its personal, maybe he whelched on a bet[;)]...

[Cmdrcain]

My view?

The Hall of Fame should have NO TIES to baseball the now, big business,  Baseball has moved past being some sport to being a money hungry greedy business.

So baseballs ineligiable rules should have NO BEARING on whos voted into the Hall of fame.

Only reason to vote one in would be their exceptional playing.

Rose as a player should be in the hall.
He at least should be on the ballott

Being on the ballott doesn't guarantee he would get voted in

However he should be on it and Baseball itself shouldn't have a say
nor its rules pertain , otherwise the Hall of Fame is a Bogus thing and we need a true Hall of Fame
that simply includes players based on their playing.

If  you accept the premis that a person  no longer playing  can be bared for life
for gambling, then they should be excluding rapists, sexual predators, murderers,
drug users who have been found guilty of felony charges (those put in jail for drug use...Gooden etc )
in fact any player found guilty of a felony should be excluded then.

Otherwise it is ridiculous to exclude due to gambling but not exclude players who after careers are found guilty of crimes.

What bothers me the most is how the Hall is under Baseballs thumb.

Its a JOKE since they seem to do whatever  Baseball says..

[Cmdrcain]

More...

If Bonds or any are found to have lied  and obstructed justice, lied to congress, committed perjury, thats a WORSE
action then  someone gambling in my view, yet I doubt the hall would bar them...

Baseball and the Hall have double standards, they allow too many dopers to play on  and even be in baseball,
they seem to treat such as people who need help etc...  Performance drugs, etc and they allowed it...
Bonds is a definite user, somehow I think those playing on into 40's must have used... back when there wasn't such users players careers usually ended in late 30's to just 40..  because their aged bodys couldn't perform.

So I'm suspect of Bonds, Moyer and others  so old yet still performing...

Lastly, we need baseball to have utterly no anti-trust protections, yeah they have lost some protections but they STILL retain certain anti-trust exemptions.

The way they have for love of money put games on satellite dish only or via
internet (at over priced cost for the quality)   just points how their running it as a pure business and Baseball should have zero exemptions NOW... be totally sueable   for their actions.

[ravinhood]

A bit off topic, but, concerning how baseball has turned into a big business sport instead of just good ole fashioned baseball, I have to say I enjoy every season when the NYY's don't make the playoff's or if they do they get beat out. Spending 100's of millions of dollars to get many of the best players in the league and still lose just makes me laugh. Baw haw Haw Steinbrener. lol As far as big business it's really only big business to those that can pariticpate and there's only a handful of teams that can really participate. I do actualy enjoy when the world series is some new teams or teams that haven't won in a 100 years. lol I'm not a Boston fan, but, I was pretty happy for them winning the world series after so many years. Whitesox as well. Even to have lived long enough to see the Astros get in a World series was great. Now, I just need me Texas Rangers to get there.

[dinsdale]

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

A bit off topic, but, concerning how baseball has turned into a big business sport instead of just good ole fashioned baseball, I have to say I enjoy every season when the NYY's don't make the playoff's or if they do they get beat out.

Don't enjoy much baseball then do you.

Spending 100's of millions of dollars to get many of the best players in the league and still lose just makes me laugh.

6 WS, winning 4 of them (all 4 without being the highest payroll team) It must be a miserable decade in Ravinhood land, what with all the RTS's, Matrix Re-releases and Yankees lol.

[Fredk]

re: robpost 3 - Joe Morgan is a legend! (and that coming from an Astros fan)

anyway, what Rose did is absolutely wrong. what if he was tight one night and only bet $1,000, but had $50,000 on the next game? You think that doesn't influence his strategy?

Despite all that, I say let him into the hall of fame no problem - his plaque just has to detail the manner in which he disgraced the game of baseball and damaged its integrity.

edit: Thanks to mark carver for the info - I did not realize that. I still think he should have his own plaque in the hall of fame, if only to educate people about what a disgrace he was.

[anarchyintheuk]

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

Now, I just need me Texas Rangers to get there.

They're making advances in longevity research everyday. Being a Rangers fan I know these things.

[Charles2222]

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

A bit off topic, but, concerning how baseball has turned into a big business sport instead of just good ole fashioned baseball, I have to say I enjoy every season when the NYY's don't make the playoff's or if they do they get beat out. Spending 100's of millions of dollars to get many of the best players in the league and still lose just makes me laugh. Baw haw Haw Steinbrener. lol As far as big business it's really only big business to those that can pariticpate and there's only a handful of teams that can really participate. I do actualy enjoy when the world series is some new teams or teams that haven't won in a 100 years. lol I'm not a Boston fan, but, I was pretty happy for them winning the world series after so many years. Whitesox as well. Even to have lived long enough to see the Astros get in a World series was great. Now, I just need me Texas Rangers to get there.

Texas Chokers did you say?

[Knuckles_85]

ORIGINAL: robpost3

He should be in the Hall.

Yes, waiting in line like everyone else to get their chance to see baseballs greatest...

ORIGINAL: sven
Well "everyone lies about gambling!"......
but I digress, frankly when the Red Machine was in swing there were two kinds of fans in my circle....
Rose or Bench.....
I was a Bench fan....

Bench too...and Morgan.
and Hank, man they are classy acts...Imagine all the kids that would be sold out if it was Clemente or Aaron, or Seaver he was squeaky clean...

Side tracking but, the 70's make a good argument forthe last greatest decade in baseball: pound for pound...Maybe it's just the 80's and that whole Flock of Seagulls thing[;)]but with few exceptions iconics and spirit that was last great crop of true ball players...
measured by deed and not commercial success...

Rose is a weed!

Wasn't the Pirates cocaine issue part of the late 70's? Even thought the trials were in the 80's it was established they were using going back into the 70's

[Knuckles_85]

ORIGINAL: Charles_22

ORIGINAL: Knuckles_85

ORIGINAL: anarchyintheuk

There wasn't any rule against steroids, hgh, etc. when McGwire et al were using them. There was a rule against betting on baseball when Rose was managing.

I wouldn't let him in the hall ever. He voluntarily signed a document divorcing himself from baseball. Don't sign what you don't mean. Fork him.

Ray Fosse's revenge is dish best served cold.


Edited to add gratuitous comment.

What McGwire and the crew did was worst. What they did was illegal.

I fail to see how it was illegal. There were no prohibitions in baseball to it when most of them started, then when Bobby Bonds starting going wild people started worrying about it and started to want to ban it. Then, of course, none of players wanted to admit it, so they just tried to wean themselves off of them or just kept trying to hide it. I suppose baseball couldn't have cared less unless it was apparent, such as in Bonds case, that their use might just boost performance more than just a little bit.

ok go down to Walgreens and pick up a couple bottles of anabolic steroids and let's see how legal it is without a perscription

[James Ward]

ORIGINAL: Knuckles_85

ORIGINAL: robpost3

He should be in the Hall.

Yes, waiting in line like everyone else to get their chance to see baseballs greatest...

ORIGINAL: sven
Well "everyone lies about gambling!"......
but I digress, frankly when the Red Machine was in swing there were two kinds of fans in my circle....
Rose or Bench.....
I was a Bench fan....

Bench too...and Morgan.
and Hank, man they are classy acts...Imagine all the kids that would be sold out if it was Clemente or Aaron, or Seaver he was squeaky clean...

Side tracking but, the 70's make a good argument forthe last greatest decade in baseball: pound for pound...Maybe it's just the 80's and that whole Flock of Seagulls thing[;)]but with few exceptions iconics and spirit that was last great crop of true ball players...
measured by deed and not commercial success...

Rose is a weed!

Wasn't the Pirates cocaine issue part of the late 70's? Even thought the trials were in the 80's it was established they were using going back into the 70's

I believe it was Doc Ellie who pitched, and won, a World Series game for the Pirates while tripping on LSD.

[Knuckles_85]

ORIGINAL: sven

ORIGINAL: robpost3



Rose is a weed!

absolutely but hey "everybody lies about *insert whatever we were lowering the bar for back in the '90s*"....

I liked Morgan and Griffey the elder as well.....

I grew up an hour north of Cincy Pete and Johnny were the cat's meow but hell I have yet to see a team better than the BRM at its peak....

Baseball died for me when they killed the World Series....

I go to minor league parks.

I grew up in Chicago and was always a Frank Thomas, Black Jack McDowell, Carlton Fisk fan. I stopped watching for a long time after that strike year. Actually what got me back watching baseball again was I became a fan of Jon Lieber on the Northside. Now I'm a fan of both teams (even though I lean heavily toward the Sox). By the way old Comiskey wasn't as great as people try to make it out to be. Tearing it down was just another reason to vilify Riesendorf

[Knuckles_85]

Dock was crazy:

Dock Phillip Ellis, Jr. (born March 11, 1945, in Los Angeles, California) is a former professional baseball player who pitched for the Pittsburgh Pirates, among other teams. His best season was 1971, when he won 19 games for the World Series champion Pirates.

An All-Star caliber player, he became better-known for several bizarre incidents:

• Beaning Reggie Jackson in the face in apparent retaliation for Reggie's monstrous home run off Ellis in the 1971 All-Star game in Detroit.
• No-hitting the San Diego Padres on June 12, 1970 despite being, as he would claim in 1984, under the influence of LSD throughout the course of the game
• Attempting to hit every batter in the Cincinnati Reds lineup on May 1, 1974. In an effort to prove a point to teammates, Ellis hit Pete Rose, Joe Morgan, and Dan Driessen in the top of the first. The clean-up batter Tony Perez avoided Ellis' attempts, instead drawing a walk, and after two pitches aimed at the head of Johnny Bench, Ellis was removed from the game by manager Danny Murtaugh. Ellis' box score for the game reads: 0 IP, 0 H, 1 R, 1 ER, 1 BB, 0 K.
• On May 5 1972, Dock Ellis engaged in an argument with a security guard who barred him from entering through the players' gate at Cincinnati's Riverfront Stadium and then maced him. The guard maintained that Ellis had failed to adequately identify himself, "made threatening gestures with a clenched fist," and was carrying a half-empty bottle of wine. Ellis denied that he had intended to punch the guard or was holding a bottle of wine and claimed he was denied entrance (and maced) despite showing his World Series ring as proof of identity.

Ellis went on to play for the New York Mets, New York Yankees, Oakland Athletics, and Texas Rangers, then ended his career back in Pittsburgh. He finished with a lifetime record of 138-119 and an ERA of 3.46.

Ellis collaborated with future U.S. Poet Laureate Donald Hall on a book, Dock Ellis in the Country of Baseball, which was published in 1976. Although Hall knew of the LSD incident, it was not included in the first edition of the book; Ellis was playing for the Yankees when the book was published, and Hall worried that George Steinbrenner would react negatively to such an admission.

Ellis has claimed he never pitched a major league game without the assistance of drugs. He now works as a drug counselor.

There is also a popular Pittsburgh sports blog entitled The Dock Ellis Experience, run by Craig Renegar and Bob Dobalina.

[Charles2222]

ORIGINAL: Knuckles_85

ORIGINAL: Charles_22

ORIGINAL: Knuckles_85



What McGwire and the crew did was worst. What they did was illegal.

I fail to see how it was illegal. There were no prohibitions in baseball to it when most of them started, then when Bobby Bonds starting going wild people started worrying about it and started to want to ban it. Then, of course, none of players wanted to admit it, so they just tried to wean themselves off of them or just kept trying to hide it. I suppose baseball couldn't have cared less unless it was apparent, such as in Bonds case, that their use might just boost performance more than just a little bit.

ok go down to Walgreens and pick up a couple bottles of anabolic steroids and let's see how legal it is without a perscription

The fact that you can get it as a prescription shows it's legal. It's just a matter of convincing a doctor to go along. It's just that getting it as a prescription makes it a little more difficult to obtain. A really illegal drug would not be available by prescription at all. Despite what the law might technically say about it, if I can get something from a doctor it isn't illegal, at least as long as I get it through him, or if I were a pro athlete that I got it from a trainer who got it from a doctor. If you are getting a drug from some punk on the corner, that a clue it's might be illegal, though such a punk selling steroids, if in fact they do, doesn't automatically discount the fact that said drug may be legal. There are a number of drugs purchased by such means simply because some people are trying to cheat the system and are trying to get higher dosages than the doctor allows.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that steroids aren't fully illegal, and since a good number of the dopers are said to get these through doctors themselves, prescription or not, people often think that they are not illegal at all. In my view they're only partially illegal, whereas I think it is inaccurate to call them either legal or illegal. They're partially legal, or partially illegal; take your pick.

[Fredk]

Using performance enhancing drugs violates the sanctity of the statistics. This is why there is a big stink about it. In football/basketball/hockey where there isn't the history and the myriad of statistical data that you find in baseball, the rampant use of these performance enhancing drugs is totally ignored.

Gambling on your own team (regardless of whether you bet on them to win or not) violates the integrity of the game in a way that can destroy its value as an entertainment spectacle.

If I made my living from baseball I know which one would make me angrier.

[James Ward]

ORIGINAL: Fredk

Using performance enhancing drugs violates the sanctity of the statistics.

How is using a performance enhancing drug different than hiring a personal trainer and dietician to keep you in top shape? Aren't both methods something other than the athelete doing it all by himself?

[Knuckles_85]

The fact that you can get it as a prescription shows it's legal. It's just a matter of convincing a doctor to go along.

No it is not. Doctors lose their licenses and go to jail for writing fake prescriptions because it's a controlled substance. If all you had to do was find a physician that will write a prescription then Todd Sauerbraun's physician wouldn't be in jail nor would the Steelers team doctor would be under indictment.

[Knuckles_85]

ORIGINAL: James Ward

ORIGINAL: Fredk

Using performance enhancing drugs violates the sanctity of the statistics.

How is using a performance enhancing drug different than hiring a personal trainer and dietician to keep you in top shape? Aren't both methods something other than the athelete doing it all by himself?

Because with both of those you still have to do the work. You are not introducing a foreign substance into your system.

[James Ward]

ORIGINAL: Knuckles_85

ORIGINAL: James Ward

ORIGINAL: Fredk

Using performance enhancing drugs violates the sanctity of the statistics.

How is using a performance enhancing drug different than hiring a personal trainer and dietician to keep you in top shape? Aren't both methods something other than the athelete doing it all by himself?

Because with both of those you still have to do the work. You are not introducing a foreign substance into your system.

That depends on what you're use to eating! [:)]

Certainly both give you an edge over those who don't hire a trainer or take drugs.
If you would do it on your own, why would you pay a trainer and dietician? In effect with a personal trainer and dietician are you 'buying' an edge over others who either don't think of it or can't afford it.
There are similarities.

[Knuckles_85]

That depends on what you're use to eating!

Certainly both give you an edge over those who don't hire a trainer or take drugs.
If you would do it on your own, why would you pay a trainer and dietician? In effect with a personal trainer and dietician are you 'buying' an edge over others who either don't think of it or can't afford it.
There are similarities.

There are no similarities. I can buy the best dietician and trainer in the world but it doesn't guarantee me results. I still have to work for my results. I still have to eat right and drag my ass out of bed and go to the gym everyday. With steroids all I gotta do is inject and I get instant muscle mass. I can't believe you're equating a personal trainer with steroids.