Clash of Steel: 1941-1945: Q-Ball vs Bletchley_Geek

[ComradeP]

Pity, you must've really had few MP's. With 10 MP's (or 11 MP's) for the units at the northern side of the breakthrough, isolating the Axis units was probably possible. As the Rifle division in the south was routed, it probably didn't have the MP's to move into an enemy hex across a river by itself, but I was hoping for you that the units in the north would've had enough MP's.

Classic case of "with a few MP's more", I guess.

[BletchleyGeek]

ORIGINAL: ComradeP
Pity, you must've really had few MP's. With 10 MP's (or 11 MP's) for the units at the northern side of the breakthrough, isolating the Axis units was probably possible. As the Rifle division in the south was routed, it probably didn't have the MP's to move into an enemy hex across a river by itself, but I was hoping for you that the units in the north would've had enough MP's.

Classic case of "with a few MP's more", I guess.

Actually, this is a good point, and a simple, yet interesting enough case study.

I reloaded the turn Q-Ball sent me and specifically checked what ComradeP suggests, the two divisions you mention had 8 MP's each... but do you know what?

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the division near the northwestern corner had 16 MPs:

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Oh, God. I don't know why I didn't pay attention to that, perhaps the unready status showing on the toggle button? Who knows... Now tonight I won't be able to sleep, waiting for the NKVD guys to fetch me and dump into one of the darkest cells at Lefortovo... [:(]

[Encircled]

Superb AAR

Like the Vinnitsa move especially

[ComradeP]

Well lesson learned for both of you Bletchley Geek, Q-Ball learns that wild unsupported dashes normally end with being cut off even this early on and you learn to always pay very careful attention to whether a unit can or can't break encirclement/isolate a German spearhead.

Mixing HQ's in with regular units can easily lead to you missing a cut off opportunity as the HQ's can't move into enemy hexes, so you'd need to deselect them first to see where the combat unit in the hex can go.

It's a pity that you, of all possible spearheads to isolate, didn't isolate AGN's spearhead as your forces facing AGN are by far both the most vulnerable and they also face the greatest challenge given how close Leningrad is to the pre-war border/where the Germans are likely to be on turn 2/3, so they're defending with their backs to a wall from early on.

[BletchleyGeek]

ORIGINAL: ComradeP
Well lesson learned for both of you Bletchley Geek, Q-Ball learns that wild unsupported dashes normally end with being cut off even this early on and you learn to always pay very careful attention to whether a unit can or can't break encirclement/isolate a German spearhead.

Yes, a lesson I hope not to forget anytime soon.

ORIGINAL: ComradeP
It's a pity that you, of all possible spearheads to isolate, didn't isolate AGN's spearhead as your forces facing AGN are by far both the most vulnerable and they also face the greatest challenge given how close Leningrad is to the pre-war border/where the Germans are likely to be on turn 2/3, so they're defending with their backs to a wall from early on.

Indeed. For some reason or another, in all my GC's as the Soviet against human players, I haven't managed to replicate the historical epic siege of the city. Usually I shift too much force on the Volkhov, and a German frontal assault - either through the front door, Pushkin, or the back door, Pavlovo - takes the city way too early. I just hoped in this one I'd put into good use what I had learnt... I'll try to be an optimist - difficult, my nature is more of a pessimist - and think that this won't decide the fate of the city.

[ComradeP]

Q-Ball will have to blow through the point where the Pskov area defenses are the strongest, which is why I'm not entirely impressed by his opening in the AGN area. Personally, I prefer crossing the Daugava with about a Panzer corps at the bend where the Airborne corps starts, as otherwise you'll end up with a large open flank like Q-Ball, which can be exploited 9 out of 10 times (the fact that you didn't do it was because you unfortunately overlooked something, your actual dispositions were fine for a forward defence). That also allows me to cross the Pskov river further south, where I don't have to worry about pre-Barbarossa forts (as there are none on the Soviet side of the river, just one or two on the Latvian side).

[BletchleyGeek]

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

Q-Ball will have to blow through the point where the Pskov area defenses are the strongest, which is why I'm not entirely impressed by his opening in the AGN area. Personally, I prefer crossing the Daugava with about a Panzer corps at the bend where the Airborne corps starts, as otherwise you'll end up with a large open flank like Q-Ball, which can be exploited 9 out of 10 times. That also allows me to cross the Pskov river further south, where I don't have to worry about pre-Barbarossa forts (as there are none on the Soviet side of the river, just one or two on the Latvian side).

AGN opening was quite different from what I expected, to be honest. At first I thought Q-Ball had sent one of 4. PzGruppe PzKorps to AGC, I wonder what was it doing? Clearing western Lithuania?

[glvaca]

ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek

Foreword

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I want to dedicate this AAR to the Eastern Front themed computer wargame I've played played the most ever, 15+ years and still kicking on my hard drive Only WiTE has been able to displace this little WEGO operational wargame from my heart, and that's quite a big deal for me.

A man after my heart! Still have them on my HD. Was addicted 5+ years playing sometimes upto 8 pbem's at the same time.
Great AAR, good luck!

[BletchleyGeek]

ORIGINAL: glvaca
A man after my heart! Still have them on my HD. Was addicted 5+ years playing sometimes upto 8 pbem's at the same time.

8 simultaneous PBEM games? [X(] Was that in ye olde times of 28800 bps modems and paying by connection time? What was your telephone bill like? [:D]

Thank you for reading and the good wishes to you all (Encircled, glvaca, Ketza, etc.).

I already got Q-Ball response, and I expect to answer this evening / night (I'm on GMT+1). I'll be offering a discussion on the industry evacuation matter, I hope nobody gets scared by the spreadsheets! [;)]

[Encircled]

Looking forward to it!

(not the spreadsheets, but the discussion)

About to start my S2, so wish me luck

[BletchleyGeek]

ORIGINAL: Encircled

Looking forward to it!

(not the spreadsheets, but the discussion)

About to start my S2, so wish me luck

S2? [&:] Anyways, good luck! [:)]

[BletchleyGeek]

Turn 3- 3 July 1941

Operational Situation Report

At a first glance, it looks like AGN took it easy this turn

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but that's an illusion. It's obvious for me that Q-Ball has built up 4. PzGruppe HQ's, limiting operations to get a bridgehead on the eastern bank of the Velikaya. If I already felt bad about not spotting the opportunity to cut the spearhead off the main body of the AGN, now I'm feeling much worse. 4. PzGruppe flanks are secure though. To the north, I'm pretty sure Q-Ball has deployed something which is not an HQ. And to the south, the HQ is not alone. I doubt that's an airbase, to be honest.

Q-Ball has restored the situation I had created between the Berezina and Drut rivers with relatively ease

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He's setup a perimeter defending his position on Orsha and Mogilev. I'm surprised that the 45th Rifle Corps hasn't been encircled, that's a signal that German motorized units had a severe shortage of MP's. It's nice to see how Q-Ball is rushing the 9. Armee to support 3. PzGruppe, he's getting infantry here really fast. Further west, elements from 4. Armee supported by Security Divisions have cleared completely the Bialystock pocket.

In the Western Ukraine Q-Ball has done an excellent work tidying up the mess I had made of the breakthrough he achieved on Turn 2

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not only he has broken the web I had laid around his units, he's also managed to make good gains eastwards. There's an option, though, to throw again a monkeywrench into AGS gears

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circled in blue there is GrossDeutschland Regiment, in red, the three most powerful Red Army units in the vicinity. The bad news is that the Rifle Division won't be able to launch a Deliberate assault on GD positions, it gets there with just 4 MP's left. Prepping the grenadiers with massed VVS assaults, and then doing several hasty attacks with the Tank Division and the Motorized Division, and one of the units in pocket south of Sheptovka, to culminate with a hasty attack with the Rifle Division doesn't look to me as a sound plan. But it could well be the only opportunity to break, again, the encirclement. On the other hand, now I'm really thin in the Ukraine, and I don't think I'll be able to check properly the German advance if I lose even more units.

The only “good news” is that to support his rescue operation, Q-Ball had to send north half the 11. Armee, so the pressure on the Southern Front isn't half as much as it could be:

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I need to retreat from here, fast to close the gaping hole just east of Kirovograd. Another piece of “good” news is that the Lvov pocket still holds fast

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Not that Q-Ball is throwing a lot at it, but Red Army units managed to held back three deliberate attacks in the hexes I highlight in the picture. While this is not bad at all, I need these guys to make of themselves a real pain in the posterior of AGS. To the east, it seems that we can surprise a couple airbases...

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In Soviet Russia, there is no such a thing as a free lunch

Industry Evacuation Plans

This turn I get 144,500 rail points, which is a lot. While quite a few reinforcements have appeared around Moscow and Leningrad, I don't think I will be spending much railcap shuttling them to defensive positions. Leningrad forces can get to their positions on foot – the enemy is really at the gates – but looks like I must send reinforcements, quickly to the beleaguered Southwestern Front. I decide to reserve 40,000 railcap points for troop movement, and spend 104,500 on evacuating industry east.

I took great pains to collect in a spreadsheet the industrial facilities which will probably menaced from now till Winter: basically everything west of the line Cherepovets – Voronezh – Rostov. How much stuff is there for starters? A lot: 200 armaments factories (55% out of the total production capacity), 97 heavy industries (40%) and 51 vehicle factories (35%). I decide to evacuate the huge industrial hub of Dnepropetrovsk, with 16 armament factories, and start working on Poltava (following Flavio advice):

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That gobbles up 102,000 points out of the allotted railcap. I'll move now the troops and see at the end of the turn what to do with the leftover (if there's any).

Operations: Baltic States & Leningrad

I decide to evacuate 27th Army from Estonia, leaving the Tallinn garrison to distract as many German forces as possible, and a thin screen of NKVD troopers covering Narva

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leaving two rifle divisions in Tallinn is a big gamble, given the very acute and real shortage of troops I have.

General M. Purkaev takes command of the just arrived 28th Army and starts organizing the militias recruited in Leningrad, manning the forts covering the immediate approaches to the city

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while the three Northwestern Front armies (27th, 22nd and 11th) cover the possible lines of advance of 4. PzGruppe in depth. 1st Mech Corps is tasked with the mission of holding Pskov and its vicinity, supported by a laughably weak Tank Division and some airborne troops. The idea is to soak as much MP's – and damage – as possible, before the German motorized units burst through the gaps created by the German infantry (Q-Ball has an ArmeeKorps worth of infantry already in position).
Further south, the Dvina is held by a screen of NKVD skirmishers while the 24th Army deploys covering the land bridge right flank and the important railroad hub at Velikiye Luki.

Operations: Orsha – Vitebsk landbridge and the upper Dnepr

I've still to reorganize the Western Front, I'm relying on Corps Hqs to keep things in order, since now every little AP counts

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isn't really a very impressive defensive line, though one which cannot be kicked around like a rag doll unless Q-Ball brings some infantry to the party. 9. Armee is still one turn away from being in position, so it means it won't be able to attack until turn 5. It's probable than Q-Ball will try to clear the western bank and make some headway across the land bridge. There I have the 20th Army, perhaps the most powerful formation under Western Front command. I have deployed the infantry hugging the river line leaving behind a semi-hedgehog of units in Reserve mode. Not many will commit – if any at all – but I expect this kind of deployment to make harder encirclements or deep penetrations into my rear.

Operations: Odessa

I forego for the moment to make any decision on what to do in the Western Ukraine until I setup the Southern Front forces. The armor is well to the north, but it wouldn't be too difficult for it to swing and hit me by surprise.

Discretion is the better part of valor

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the Southern Front retreats towards Krivoi Rog and Nikolaiev, not looking behind. Another NKVD regiment decides to hug a PzDiv. More interesting is the defense of Odessa

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I organize the city defenders under the 9th Rifle Corps. Yet another little present for Q-Ball to handle on his flank.

Operations: Western Ukraine

Against my initial feelings I decide to try a relief operation of the pocketed units around Proskurov. The VVS receives orders to mass and pound Grossdeutschland positions, enough bombers are mustered to do 4 attacks on the grenadiers. They inflict very little losses, just a few AA guns – I think – and increasing fatigue of ground elements. Next step is assembling the attack force under the 9th Mech Corps HQ (CO is K. Rokossovsky), and the grizzly operation starts, with two hasty attacks by the 20th Tank Division:

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and

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next comes the real “assault”. This is no assault, this is carnage

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a flock of kamikaze flying pigs, supported by the suicide dog bombers division force the mighty GrossDeutschland to retreat, HURRAH! The just relieved forces attempt to cause trouble on German spearheads, but MP's are extremely limited and nothing is achieved

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if just the LSSAH KG Khmelnik had been pushed back... at least we've tried.

The battle for the Western Ukrain is all but lost. Time to conduct an operational withdrawal towards the Dnepr, leaving behind some force to hold up German spearheads – or rather to entertain them:

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I adopt a mostly “hedgehog” stance, but covering well the nearest German motorized units. Q-Ball is now spread out thinly, perhaps the hedgehog will dissuade him from pushing hard next turn. I really need some breathing space here, and I don't have the means to create it!!!

Fortification Works

Defeatism?

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No, not really. Those are the Moscow militias. Not only they're crappy troops, but they're understrength. So I get them to do something useful while they gain some strength.

With 34 AP's left I can create 4 Fortified Zones. Two of them are setup around Kharkov, where I have also started to work

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and two are assigned to Stalino, where I have a lot of homework to do:

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Factory Evacuation II

I'm left with 19,838 after having railed the troops appearing in the Urals and sending 7 divisions to the Southwestern Front. I use these points to get out 1 point of Yak-6 and 8 points of KV-1 production are evacuated from Leningrad and 4 points of U-2VS from Moscow. I end up wasting 318 points of railcap.

[ComradeP]

Nice attack, I was wondering whether you could attack one of the units on the perimeter of the pocket, but didn't think you would have enough units in the area to make a hasty attack on GD. He'll more or less have to bump at least some of the units that started the turn in the pocket out of the path of his infantry. Your dispositions in the pocket itself were still quite good in terms of the territory you covered. His infantry needs to move through 3 to 4 hexes at the point closest to where his infantry seems to be coming from, and that will cost 9 to 12 MP's all by itself if he moves through the former pocket, so you're slowing down his infantry fairly well.

Given the situation, I don't think Southwestern Front is doing nearly as poorly as some people think.

One suggestion (or two in one): as soon as the Axis get in a position from where they'll probably attack Tallinn or Odessa next turn, evacuate the garrison by sea. Otherwise, he might let them retreat into a coastal hex so the units will be isolate. Neither city is worth losing divisions over.

As a final note: good job on putting the "lesson learned" about always checking MP's and what you can do with available MP's into practice.

[Encircled]

S2?

Soviet Turn 2!

Nice attack btw

[Flaviusx]

If I had the rail cap, I'd rail U2VS forward into cities that will be captured...

[Speedysteve]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

If I had the rail cap, I'd rail U2VS forward into cities that will be captured...

LOL[:D]

[BletchleyGeek]

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

Nice attack, I was wondering whether you could attack one of the units on the perimeter of the pocket, but didn't think you would have enough units in the area to make a hasty attack on GD. He'll more or less have to bump at least some of the units that started the turn in the pocket out of the path of his infantry. Your dispositions in the pocket itself were still quite good in terms of the territory you covered. His infantry needs to move through 3 to 4 hexes at the point closest to where his infantry seems to be coming from, and that will cost 9 to 12 MP's all by itself if he moves through the former pocket, so you're slowing down his infantry fairly well.

Given the situation, I don't think Southwestern Front is doing nearly as poorly as some people think.

It was really close. The VVS and Rokossovsky were the artifices of that "victory" (note the double quotes, this is no victory but the propaganda machine will be surely able to put a spin into it).

Your observations wrt his infantry are right on spot. That was the goal, to keep the infantry separated from the motorized spearheads as long as possible. If he makes contact with the current state of affairs... well, that will be GAME OVER.

Regarding the performance of Southwestern Front... I'd love to see critical comments on that. I am not sure of having managed the situation perfectly. Turn 1 opening was a crushing catastrophe, and Turn 2 Vinnitsa breakthrough just put the "cherry" on top of a very sour cake. Disasters can't really be "managed", it's more about "damage control" than "management".

ORIGINAL: ComradeP
One suggestion (or two in one): as soon as the Axis get in a position from where they'll probably attack Tallinn or Odessa next turn, evacuate the garrison by sea. Otherwise, he might let them retreat into a coastal hex so the units will be isolate. Neither city is worth losing divisions over.

The plan was to force him to assault in force so if routed/retreated they were evacuated by sea "for free". The CV's there are in the 30's forties... if I see him massing a lot of German infantry I will certainly do as you say. If he covers Odessa with Romanians, well, then it can well be that I will be holding that till Winter. And it will be good for me that the 11. Armee gets distracted. With Tallinn the plan is the same, to distract the 18. Armee, though holding the city is out of the question.

ORIGINAL: ComradeP
As a final note: good job on putting the "lesson learned" about always checking MP's and what you can do with available MP's into practice.

I'm not particularly worried about "looking bad". I think it's way more useful - and interesting for prospective readers - to acknowledge failures and analyze them.

[BletchleyGeek]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx
If I had the rail cap, I'd rail U2VS forward into cities that will be captured...

[:D] You know what? I'm getting increasingly fond of the silly things And who knows, perhaps one of those night attack squadrons might drop one of their 50kgs bomb right on top of Guderian's or Manstein's command post

[ComradeP]

The plan was to force him to assault in force so if routed/retreated they were evacuated by sea "for free".

If you can do that, it's nice, but it's going to be tricky in both cases, as both for Odessa and Tallinn, there's no real need for the Axis to occupy all hexes adjacent to the cities prior to an assault.

[kirkgregerson]

Bletchley_Geek,

What map mod are you using? Did you change the font on top of that as well?

Thanks