Rise of the Sheep! JocMeister(A) vs. Obvert(J)

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

I don't want to sound polemic or anything like that, but i'm feeling obliged (sp?!) to comment.

Joc: probably the best way to judge if PDU=ON is really a game breaker as you say, for your next game you should simply try to shift sides and play on Japan with Scen 2 and PDU=ON.
I did it and it was an "eyes-opener". An Epiphany.
Once you discover how fragile is japanese power (even in 1942) you'll surely change your mind a bit.

I'm currently playing 2 games, one with Japan against QBall and one with the allies against Mr.Kane (both are DBB-C games) and i can tell you every time i open the allied game i'm amazed by the quantity and quality of my assets. In 1944 "my" Japan is a paper-pussycat

I wonder if you (and perhaps a lot of other people as well) has misunderstood me with my PDU ON/OFF speculations? I have never once said its a game breaker or that its ruining the game. What I have said is that I don´t like it and I think it messes with a lot of things. This in turn takes a lot of enjoyment out of the game (at least for me). The air war have been the least enjoyable part of the game for me. I don´t think Erik has enjoyed it very much either but you will have to ask him about that.

I think (speculation on my part) that playing with PDU OFF would make things make a lot more sense and you could do away with all the HRs about night bombing, altitudes, sweep/LRCAP, airfield stacking and the myriad of different variations on this we see today.

Either people are taking things out of context or I´m being unclear. I don´t think PDU ON destroys the game. I have never said that. Is it fun having empty pool in 45 as an allied player when you are forced to push, push and push? Not at all. But it can still be done so it hasn´t broken the game. I never said it did. I´m just saying its not much fun. And I do whine about it a lot. But I think in my own AAR I´m entitled to do that? [;)]

I just don´t buy the talk that the game is impossible to play as the Japanese with PDU OFF. Do anyone here envision PzB rolling belly up because he has to play with PDU OFF? Not likely I say.

Again to make it perfectly clear: I´m just speculating around the idea that PDU OFF will give a better overall experience. For both sides. But I guess it depends on what you are after. I´m still very intrigued by fcharton and he his game. It will be very interesting to hear his thoughts when he is further in.

Have you played with PDU Off all the way through before? I remember in my first AI game I learned what PDU On did (or even that it existed), and even as the Allies my immediate thought was "Why would you ever play with it off?" It can be so frustrating to have state-side units in P-40s and P-38s when your allegedly front line units are still flying P-36s. Or like when you eventually run out of British Buffalos, but the Hurricane replacements begin to arrive and you can switch some of those squadrons.


I also encourage you (everyone) to play Japan against the AI, with or without PDU, for at least a couple of in-game months. For many reasons. I'd list them, but other people have whenever this recommendation comes up and I've got work to do [8D].

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: JocMeister



It think you are right about that. [:)]

I would still like to try it at least one time though. As I´ve mentioned many times now its just speculation on my part regarding PDU ON/OFF. I still think playing with PDU OFF could be a lot of fun for both sides and make a lot of the things in the game make more sense. The whole game was designed around PDU OFF after all.

I´m still convinced a potent Japanese player could do very well with PDU OFF. I just have to find one that believes the same! [:D]

If nothing else I think it might speed up turn prep time, especially for Japan.

I disagree, at least on the industry part. It would require juggling more aircraft factories. Granted, like all else in Japan's industry, once you have it set up it's easier. But setting it up takes that much longer, and it requires that much more time to check up on it. And as upgrade dates near, it would take that much more time. With PDU On, one only has to keep track of about 7-8 important airframe availability dates (Tojo/Frank, Zero, Val/Judy, Kate/Jill, IJAAF 2E, IJNAF 2E, Jack/George) along with maybe 5 or so subsidiary dates that are less important (Oscar, Nick, night fighters, Ki-83 or Ki-94, etc.).

It might speed up turn prep later when the Japanese OOB is less capable due to being stuck in 1st generation aircraft until 1944, because there won't be as much battle planning to do.

For sure I'm in first grade on Japanese industry and you're in grad school, but I thought the initial set-up of production and R&D was to allow PDU OFF paths to happen by themselves, at least into the second generation? And the only decisions were on expansion for volume, not on models? On R&D you can still turn off or change, but you can't shove more planes into groups which can't take them, right?

[Lokasenna]

One more post, RE: strat bombing and your perceived woes.


I think you are approaching this from a perspective of loss aversion and a desire to continue to do what you're doing, which is a very natural human thing to do. However, look at your total losses. Then look at his.

I think you should look at the 4Es as an asset to be expended in the pursuit of victory. So far you've lost 382 planes. That's 764 VPs. How many strategic losses VPs are you sitting on as a result of that? A couple of thousand, right? How has that advanced you towards auto-victory? Don't forget his night fighter losses, either.

The losses may be ahistorical, but so is the quality of Japanese resistance. Isn't that the whole point of playing to the end - to see how much better a human can do in a computer game than the Japanese did IRL?

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

Have you played with PDU Off all the way through before? I remember in my first AI game I learned what PDU On did (or even that it existed), and even as the Allies my immediate thought was "Why would you ever play with it off?" It can be so frustrating to have state-side units in P-40s and P-38s when your allegedly front line units are still flying P-36s. Or like when you eventually run out of British Buffalos, but the Hurricane replacements begin to arrive and you can switch some of those squadrons.


I also encourage you (everyone) to play Japan against the AI, with or without PDU, for at least a couple of in-game months. For many reasons. I'd list them, but other people have whenever this recommendation comes up and I've got work to do [8D].

My first two allied games in AE (AI) was with PDU OFF. I remember it being a huge PITA and the following games were with PDU ON. The second one I actually dropped after only a month realising I forgotten to switch PDU ON. [:D]

I have played one AI game as the Jap but I only got a couple of months in and I didn´t touch the industry besides following on of the Jap guides here on the forum to the letter. I just can´t feel involved playing Japan. Not sure why! But I´m slowly started reading up on the Jap industry. I might start a Jap AI game after this game is done and the babies are a bit older! So in 2020 perhaps? [:D]

Feels like the next logical step is to actually play Japan. I guess thats the only way I will ever find out if my theories are right! Sadly I would make a horrible Japanese player!

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58




If nothing else I think it might speed up turn prep time, especially for Japan.

I disagree, at least on the industry part. It would require juggling more aircraft factories. Granted, like all else in Japan's industry, once you have it set up it's easier. But setting it up takes that much longer, and it requires that much more time to check up on it. And as upgrade dates near, it would take that much more time. With PDU On, one only has to keep track of about 7-8 important airframe availability dates (Tojo/Frank, Zero, Val/Judy, Kate/Jill, IJAAF 2E, IJNAF 2E, Jack/George) along with maybe 5 or so subsidiary dates that are less important (Oscar, Nick, night fighters, Ki-83 or Ki-94, etc.).

It might speed up turn prep later when the Japanese OOB is less capable due to being stuck in 1st generation aircraft until 1944, because there won't be as much battle planning to do.

For sure I'm in first grade on Japanese industry and you're in grad school, but I thought the initial set-up of production and R&D was to allow PDU OFF paths to happen by themselves, at least into the second generation? And the only decisions were on expansion for volume, not on models? On R&D you can still turn off or change, but you can't shove more planes into groups which can't take them, right?

Ok yeah, it would be a lot faster at the start because you'd end up just leaving a lot of the R&D factories alone. But later on when you're managing X more pools for X more models of aircraft... ugh. I have no idea how this would affect engine factories, but it might balance out.

Off the top of my head, there are groups that can't upgrade into "real" 2E bombers until very late in the war, so the Japanese would end up producing Lilys until 1944, for example. There are IJN fighter groups that would be forced to fly the A6M5 until upgrading to the A6M5b in 1944, and then skipping the M5c with armor to get into a Shinden when that comes online very late in the war. And this is just knowledge from looking at several of the air groups on December 7 in a scenario 1 game yesterday. At least those ones use "standard" aircraft. There are also units that end up converting, via their upgrade path, from FB to RE or vice versa. What if you just want to upgrade them to the next generation recon plane? With PDU Off, you're stuck with the old one.


However, the whole war isn't fought in the air. When I thought yesterday about the ~400-500k supply I spent just on one cycle of R&D and how I could instead use that supply on the perimeter... well, it just made me think more about choices.

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

One more post, RE: strat bombing and your perceived woes.

I think you are approaching this from a perspective of loss aversion and a desire to continue to do what you're doing, which is a very natural human thing to do. However, look at your total losses. Then look at his.

I think you should look at the 4Es as an asset to be expended in the pursuit of victory. So far you've lost 382 planes. That's 764 VPs. How many strategic losses VPs are you sitting on as a result of that? A couple of thousand, right? How has that advanced you towards auto-victory? Don't forget his night fighter losses, either.

The losses may be ahistorical, but so is the quality of Japanese resistance. Isn't that the whole point of playing to the end - to see how much better a human can do in a computer game than the Japanese did IRL?

Very valid point and I agree. Up to a point! [;)] I´ll respond in length tonight when Ida isn´t throwing Lego at me!

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

However, the whole war isn't fought in the air. When I thought yesterday about the ~400-500k supply I spent just on one cycle of R&D and how I could instead use that supply on the perimeter... well, it just made me think more about choices.

One option you don't mention re things like Lilys is to just let the group "go." That's a valid response to PDU OFF. It saves pilots flying egg crates too. The main threat Lilys have against the Allies is guys on the ground dying laughing. You can just let the group go when you flush the pools and turn the engines to something else, or the engine factory as the case may be. I think it's a rich production decision enviro, although as you say complicated with a lot of dog and cat models.

Tracker has production run planning tabs, right? I never look in there.

Playing the Allies it kills you in 1944 to see hundreds of Corsairs and P-47s sitting in the pools and nowhere to stick them.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

However, the whole war isn't fought in the air. When I thought yesterday about the ~400-500k supply I spent just on one cycle of R&D and how I could instead use that supply on the perimeter... well, it just made me think more about choices.

One option you don't mention re things like Lilys is to just let the group "go." That's a valid response to PDU OFF. It saves pilots flying egg crates too. The main threat Lilys have against the Allies is guys on the ground dying laughing. You can just let the group go when you flush the pools and turn the engines to something else, or the engine factory as the case may be. I think it's a rich production decision enviro, although as you say complicated with a lot of dog and cat models.

Tracker has production run planning tabs, right? I never look in there.

Playing the Allies it kills you in 1944 to see hundreds of Corsairs and P-47s sitting in the pools and nowhere to stick them.

Sort of. I don't fully understand how to use them. I have to use a separate spreadsheet for myself if I want to get into the nitty gritty, otherwise I just look at pool trends.

I do know where to find things like "to build out" requirements and whatnot, but for planning forward with a curve? No idea. Ideally, I'd like to see Tracker have a graph that was selected by airframe. It would show the required numbers to fill out all the units with that airframe (not counting losses to be replaced of course, but including "forced" upgrades if PDU On) over time, similar to the ARM and VEH points charts. It would have another line for current production, anchored by engine production if there's a bottleneck there... And if I'm really dreaming, yet another 2 lines (perhaps dotted) for required engines of that type and trend production for that engine. I could do all this in Excel, but so much work...

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

One more post, RE: strat bombing and your perceived woes.

I think you are approaching this from a perspective of loss aversion and a desire to continue to do what you're doing, which is a very natural human thing to do. However, look at your total losses. Then look at his.

I think you should look at the 4Es as an asset to be expended in the pursuit of victory. So far you've lost 382 planes. That's 764 VPs. How many strategic losses VPs are you sitting on as a result of that? A couple of thousand, right? How has that advanced you towards auto-victory? Don't forget his night fighter losses, either.

The losses may be ahistorical, but so is the quality of Japanese resistance. Isn't that the whole point of playing to the end - to see how much better a human can do in a computer game than the Japanese did IRL?

Finally stopped raining Legos....

In general I´m happy with the results of the strat bombings. I´m extremely happy from a VP standpoint. But right now its a game of diminishing returns. During the last month the strike size have been halved. From 220 to 120. This means flak and NFs are even more concentrated. So losses mount while results get less and less. The last raid cost me 30 B29s for only 1300 fires. The strike before that hit nothing. I need to get numbers back up before going again. Sadly this means 2 months without strikes.

But there are some light in the tunnel. The "B" version begins in just over a month. While I think it will be impossible to use them where there are NFs the higher bombload may make it productive to start hitting HI and factories directly. If it does Erik will have to start diluting the NFs over the HI and not focusing on Osaka/Tokyo alone.

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
However, the whole war isn't fought in the air. When I thought yesterday about the ~400-500k supply I spent just on one cycle of R&D and how I could instead use that supply on the perimeter... well, it just made me think more about choices.

Ah, the seed is planted! [:D] How many of these cycles would you normally do during one game?

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

One more post, RE: strat bombing and your perceived woes.

I think you are approaching this from a perspective of loss aversion and a desire to continue to do what you're doing, which is a very natural human thing to do. However, look at your total losses. Then look at his.

I think you should look at the 4Es as an asset to be expended in the pursuit of victory. So far you've lost 382 planes. That's 764 VPs. How many strategic losses VPs are you sitting on as a result of that? A couple of thousand, right? How has that advanced you towards auto-victory? Don't forget his night fighter losses, either.

The losses may be ahistorical, but so is the quality of Japanese resistance. Isn't that the whole point of playing to the end - to see how much better a human can do in a computer game than the Japanese did IRL?

Finally stopped raining Legos....

In general I´m happy with the results of the strat bombings. I´m extremely happy from a VP standpoint. But right now its a game of diminishing returns. During the last month the strike size have been halved. From 220 to 120. This means flak and NFs are even more concentrated. So losses mount while results get less and less. The last raid cost me 30 B29s for only 1300 fires. The strike before that hit nothing. I need to get numbers back up before going again. Sadly this means 2 months without strikes.

But there are some light in the tunnel. The "B" version begins in just over a month. While I think it will be impossible to use them where there are NFs the higher bombload may make it productive to start hitting HI and factories directly. If it does Erik will have to start diluting the NFs over the HI and not focusing on Osaka/Tokyo alone.

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
However, the whole war isn't fought in the air. When I thought yesterday about the ~400-500k supply I spent just on one cycle of R&D and how I could instead use that supply on the perimeter... well, it just made me think more about choices.

Ah, the seed is planted! [:D] How many of these cycles would you normally do during one game?

What's to stop you from making him think he has to defend more than Osaka and Tokyo right now?


I would say that I might do a second, far smaller cycle. But I can see how someone really focused on getting the early/mid war planes as soon as possible could focus hard on them (we're talking more than 6 factories, maybe as many as 12) and then later just switch them all to the late war models, the R&D for which doesn't really repair reliably until about that time anyway.

[catwhoorg]

I'm mid 1943 versus the AI with PDU off.

Yeah its a little frustrating seeing my my P-38's stateside training pilots for P-39s and P40s

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

What's to stop you from making him think he has to defend more than Osaka and Tokyo right now?


I would say that I might do a second, far smaller cycle. But I can see how someone really focused on getting the early/mid war planes as soon as possible could focus hard on them (we're talking more than 6 factories, maybe as many as 12) and then later just switch them all to the late war models, the R&D for which doesn't really repair reliably until about that time anyway.

I have been unable to hit factories and HI/LI directly using the "25" version on extended range at night. I hope the increased bombload on the "B" version might make it possible to hit other targets besides Osaka/Tokyo. Havn´t tried it though so I might not hit anything with that version either.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

What's to stop you from making him think he has to defend more than Osaka and Tokyo right now?


I would say that I might do a second, far smaller cycle. But I can see how someone really focused on getting the early/mid war planes as soon as possible could focus hard on them (we're talking more than 6 factories, maybe as many as 12) and then later just switch them all to the late war models, the R&D for which doesn't really repair reliably until about that time anyway.

I have been unable to hit factories and HI/LI directly using the "25" version on extended range at night. I hope the increased bombload on the "B" version might make it possible to hit other targets besides Osaka/Tokyo. Havn´t tried it though so I might not hit anything with that version either.

Have you been able to Recon at all for a higher DL? Shouldn't that help with directly bombing factories, especially since you're doing so at night?

[JocMeister]

[font="Verdana"]20th February -45[/font]
______________________________________________________________________________

Tic toc. Not much happening. But the clock is ticking.

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Luzon
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Logistical nightmare this turn. Rebased the entire air force to new bases and sent everything from Iloilo and Cotabato to the proper locations. Only a couple of thousand mouse clicks...

The attack at Bataan went well and its now in allied hands.

Ground combat at Bataan (78,77)

Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 11324 troops, 222 guns, 352 vehicles, Assault Value = 423

Defending force 4256 troops, 50 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 75

Allied engineers reduce fortifications to 2

Allied adjusted assault: 223

Japanese adjusted defense: 13

Allied assault odds: 17 to 1 (fort level 2)

Allied forces CAPTURE Bataan !!!

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), forts(+), disruption(-), fatigue(-)
experience(-), supply(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
755 casualties reported
Squads: 2 destroyed, 19 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 11 disabled
Engineers: 79 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 14 (8 destroyed, 6 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
20 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 4 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled

Assaulting units:
754th Tank Battalion
25th Infantry Division

Defending units:
52nd Naval Guard Unit
25th Ind. Engineer Regiment
62nd Construction Battalion
4th JNAF Coy
15th Base Force

The troops will stay another day to destroy the Japanese troops evicted. They will then head towards the Superstack cut off against the coast.

Erik is again flying troops out from Northern Luzon. I´ve set the bombers to close the AF. Writing this I just realised I forgot to set the sweeps on those bases. If Erik has a CAP up tomorrow I´m going to lose some bombers. Crap.

Nothing else to report. [X(]

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
Have you been able to Recon at all for a higher DL? Shouldn't that help with directly bombing factories, especially since you're doing so at night?

I have that nifty B29 recon plane so I can reach almost everywhere. [:)]

I havn´t done so in the game but I recall trying it in sandbox. As far as I can remember it didn´t help. Have to check up on the notes before giving it a definitive answer. But Maria is hogging the computer right now.

[CyrusSpitama]

Forgive me Joc. I never meant to insinuate you were currently insisting PDU-OFF. I said BEFORE you insist on PDU_OFF

Regardless of our opinion on this matter, do we have many AARs that saw end of war with PDU OFF and what the difficulties were with this setting?

Also, to be honest, I consider PDU-OFF to be the *hard* setting as our resident Moose hinted at. Until I am far more competent, I will keep my PDU crutch[:D]

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: CyrusSpitama

Forgive me Joc. I never meant to insinuate you were currently insisting PDU-OFF. I said BEFORE you insist on PDU_OFF

Regardless of our opinion on this matter, do we have many AARs that saw end of war with PDU OFF and what the difficulties were with this setting?

Also, to be honest, I consider PDU-OFF to be the *hard* setting as our resident Moose hinted at. Until I am far more competent, I will keep my PDU crutch[:D]

Nothing to apologize for! Just wanted to make it clear. Seems some people have completely misunderstood my PDU ON/OFF musings. [:)]

To my knowledge there have been no AAR nor game completed with PDU OFF. In fact I know of only 2 games total that has gone all the way. There are some approaching though. I know of only the game with fcharton that plays with PDU OFF. But I think another one was started recently using PDU OFF and DBB-C. Don´t think its being AARed though.

I still find the whole subject very interesting and fascinating. But I guess the only way I will ever prove or disprove my theories is by learning the Jap side. And learn it well!

Another quite interesting think worth considering with PDU OFF from a Japanese perspective. In my game Erik has lost 35.000 planes. Thats 35.000 VPs. Playing with PDU OFF I´m certain this would/could be halved. Not having endless number of planes to throw at the allies with complete disregard for losses would certainly have a bit of a breaking effect in terms of numbers lost. Although having less potent planes it would mean a lot less offensive combat and more carefully chosen battles. Right or wrong, speculate the Japanese player can cut those losses with 10.000. Thats 20.000 more VPs the allied player has to gain for AV.

20.000 VPs is quite a large number. Then you have the added benefit of not having to produce those 10.000 fighters. There are even more VPs to be found this way. Erik has suffered 2000 losses to 2Es. That should be less with PDU OFF. He also lost a staggering 1000 losses in transport OPS losses alone. Jakes (he has done some "creative" resizing with them) are 2500 VPs. [X(]

All those number add up. If you can save 15.000 VPs on this thats 30.000 more allied VPs needed for AV in 45. Considering right now I have 85.000 VPs and need 110.000 for AV. I would need 140.000 instead. So I would barely be half way by now.

Food for thought... [:)]

[JocMeister]

[font="Verdana"]Reorganizing the air force[/font]
______________________________________________________________________________

I did a major reorganization of the USAAF last night. I withdrew 20% of both the Fighter and 4E squadrons.

The 4Es will all reform in 3 months. Optimally I would have prefered to downgrade them and use the squadrons for GRND training. But I don´t have any models to downgrade too. Hopefully having less squadrons in combat will allow the pool to slowly start growing back. Doing this allowed me to fill all squadrons back to 12 planes (filling them up to the new size of 16/24 won´t happen in this game). It also created a "healthy" pool of 32 planes.

The fighters were downgraded and sent to OZ to train GRND with the rest of the squadrons already there. I now have over 10-14 USAAF fighter squadrons there doing the same thing flying the P40/P39. This has helped a great deal with the bomber pilot pool.

This allowed me to top off the USAAF fighter squadrons on Luzon and created a reserve that will hopefully allow for 1-2 days of fighting depending on how heavy the losses are. I have kept my best 10 squadrons out of combat throughout the Luzon campaign. These will be given the P47N when it arrives next month. I hope they will prove a nasty surprise for Erik. The pilots are absolutely stellar with EXP between 75 and 90. Those 10 squadrons have inflicted a staggering 4300 kills alone. Almost 30% of the total Japanese A2A losses. [X(]

P38 pool is shaping up nicely with almost 150 planes now. Sadly its no longer combat effective for anything by suicide escort.

A more positive area is the USN pools. DB/TB pools are overflowing and the Hellcat pool has risen to almost 500. That should be enough to recover from one major CV battle. Corsair pools is still critical with only 38 planes in the pool. But losses are expected to be light as the Corsairs do all the CAP while the expendable Hellcat do the escorting that takes all the heavy losses.

Here is the screen of the air losses. One would think I would be in great shape? [:D]

[JocMeister]

[font="Verdana"]20th February -45[/font]
______________________________________________________________________________

Right now its more like playing a logistics simulator then anything else!

------------------------
Luzon
------------------------
The enemy troops at Bataan make a stand for one more day. 800 killed off but they refuse to surrender. Massive troops shifts here as I started pulling the troops for the next objectives.

I have yet to reprep the troops prepped for Formosa. Erik have been a bit prone to overreacting at times and its not entirely impossible he will start to shift a good amount of troops if he thinks Hokkaido is a possible target. I see some movement out of Takao and the troops have dropped down to 180.000 already and movement continues...I´ll wait another week or so to evaluate this.

------------------------
DEI
------------------------
Still no opposition here. Another base will be secured tomorrow. A small number of troops are still left at Batavia. I´ve started to pull out even more troops from here. Looks like Erik will make a stand at Singers. I´ll take what he leaves for free but won´t make a bigger commitment here.

------------------------
China/Indochina
------------------------
Superstack Mk.5 seems to be getting another 30.000 reinforcements. That would boost numbers to almost 200.000. I´m probably going to try one attack here to see how it goes. Its only x2 terrain. Every loss on the Jap troops will cost him supply.

------------------------
Strat bombing
------------------------
B29s at Luzon will strike into China again. With no NFs or flak and flying only 20-30 hexes it seems I can go two nights in a row then rest for 2-3 days to recover pilot fatigue and go again. If I can keep this up without opposition all LI/HI within range should be gone in late March. [:)]

[JocMeister]

[font="Verdana"]DEI[/font]
______________________________________________________________________________