Let us reform the Red Army of Workers and Peasants! (Advice needed)

[Wiedrock]

AA Regiments vs battalions - Regiments have lower manpower but both need the same amount of trucks. I would disband the batts except that they use the 85mm AA gun.

I am sure you confused something in this.

Not sure if you know but there are Naval AA Battalion TOEs which are Non-Mot and therefore you can disband all the regular AA Battalions and build Naval AA Battalions (if you want AA Battalions).

Note that AA that gets "rolled" into combat isn't shooting at planes.
...I am somewhat sceptical on how AA works/how worthwile it is in attached/GS-bombing contexts (especially so for Soviets). AA Guns always perform bad against ground targets, no matter what, so that's nothing you'd want to use them for. But i guess this would be a separate Thread.

One good case to use 76+85mm AA guns is in High Intensity Combat (Urban/Heavy Urban/Port), defences. There they shine, for whatever unknown reason.

Mortar - a battalion has more tubes than a regiment, using only a third of the manpower and trucks. So a batt is a more efficient use of resources but cant go Guards....

If this TOE is historically/legit, buildable without limits and right to be kept around all game long I have my doubts.
You keep the mortar battalions, you can't have 100% Guards on Mortars anyways and the Battalions increase the "base" the percentage is calculated from, so having them does not hurt your Guards numbers in itself. Imo Battalions with amazing manpower/gun/CV/truck ratios can be kept (especially if they have the same firepower as an regiment as in this case).

Rocket regiments and battalions - cv of a tooth pick and take lots of trucks. Disband?

Artillery isn't about CV, it's about making hits.

EDIT: Since game Version V1.04.10, the Soviet Rockets before 1943 now have the same Ammo authorized as in 1943, so the Soviet Rockets are now worthwile!!! This means all I wrote about "bad Rockets" can be ignored below. Not tested since, if they are still better at offense than defense (I suppose they are) when compared to Artillery.

Soviet Rocket Artillery is bad at both
Rockets have a special Ammo reduction which goes on top of all the other Soviet Ammo reductions.

What I can say with some confidence (not 100% sure on this), but it feels they are way better on attacks ...or WAY WORSE on defence for some reason. It may have to do in some way with them being "rolled" or they have some further defence debuff as "rockets" (or whatever).
But even comparing a 20Gun 76.2mm AT-Regiment on the defence being rolled into combat, performs at least equal or better than a Rocket Regiment, while winning in Manpower needs by ~1.5-2.0 and trucks being equal to the heavy Rocket Regiment but ~x1.8 needed in the Light Rocket Regiment.
On attacks they are able to somewhat "break even" in some metrics with some bad Artillery TOEs/Elements (like Corps Regiment with 16x76.2mm+12x122mm) when having their +10MOREX and are in an ASSAULT HQ.

Whenever I look at them I only can come up with engineering "perfect conditions" (+10EXP+ASSAULT+Attack(not defence)) for them to barely break even with the worst of the worst Artillery (in some metrics).
Not sure if there are cases/metrics to use to consider them worthwile before 1944, maybe someone has some hints...maybe the Ammo modifiers in 1943 work already...or the onmap rocket units....or when always used with 100CPP may make some more sense/give better ratios...
...until then, imo the only reasons to use them is if you lack other assets or you want to LARP.

ROCKETS: I think the Light Rocket Regts are fine, even when the TOE reduces to 24....am I off base? Rocket Bn are waste of time

See what I wrote above, I would like to hear how they are supposed to be worthwile, I may be missing smth.

I also noticed that I've ended up with a limited number of PVO AA units in the RESERVES; I've been refitting those, as I noticed they are NOT Motorized, so do not take trucks. That seems handy, attached to Rifle, Cav, or HQ units.....

You can not attach "PVO"-containing units to normal Divisions/Corps.
And note that when AA Untis get "rolled" into combat they will not perform AA shooting and still suck at shooting ground targets as AA assets always do.

Also, what do you do with the NAVAL INFANTRY BRIGADES? They are a dead-end as they can't combine into Division, can't be guards. If the focus is Rifle Brigades, should these eventually be disbanded for manpower?

You can't have 100% Guards for infantry anyways, I think you can use the AP you get for other things. If anything you could think about disbanding those that disband themselves later in game so you do not lose 10-15 Inf Brigades (if they survive until then) which you then can't rebuild, but that's far planning ahead.

Army Artillery: 36 Tubes of Heavy, Build Lots
Cannon Regt: 48 Tubes of 122 Field Gun; build a bunch within production limits
Howitzer Brigade: 84 Tubes of 122 Howitzer; build some, lots of punch, but are truck hogs

Am I on target?

Looks reasonable.

[Q-Ball]

OK, good to know on Rockets.....they don't work that well. Stick to the standard artillery. Got it.

What about TANK units?

BRIGADES or REGTS for SU attachment? You need Brigades to get to Guards to make Tank Corps, so I know you need some. But aren't REGT more efficient in terms of Manpower/Tanks/Vehicles?

TANK BN are a waste of time, correct? (Since they can't be Guards)

HEAVY TANK REGT.....I know M60 doesn't like them, but they seem like a light Manpower Commitment (200 men), are Insta-Guards, and well, you have plenty of KV Tanks anyway (even if the KV-1s really isn't better than a T-34/76)

When Assault Guns start arriving, the SU-152/SU-122 Regts look like must-haves with their hitting power in assaults

[Shupov]

Help suggestions please.

The weather is on the improve in 1942. My Army is large and the constraint will probably be trucks. I want to make the Army stronger, not necessarily bigger.

1. What units should i build from scratch.

The discussion provides excellent information and guidance. But always keep in mind the Red Army will primarily derive its strength from infantry divisions and corps. In 1942 you will mostly still be playing defense. The Rifle Corps provides concentrated power where needed for offense and defending key objectives but in many cases individual Rifle Divisions up to stacks of three can hold the line.

If the Soviets are doing reasonably well in 1942 then manpower is plentiful. Build enough Rifle Division equivalents (Brigade = ½, Division = 1, Corps = 3) to reach 450-500 (On-Map and SR) before 1943, when the RD build limit reduces to 8. Don’t spend the 5 AP for Rifle Corps except where necessary. In 1943 it will cost 11 AP to get three RD including the 5 AP for the RC so don’t get caught short.

[56ajax]

The discussion provides excellent information and guidance. But always keep in mind the Red Army will primarily derive its strength from infantry divisions and corps. In 1942 you will mostly still be playing defense. The Rifle Corps provides concentrated power where needed for offense and defending key objectives but in many cases individual Rifle Divisions up to stacks of three can hold the line.

If the Soviets are doing reasonably well in 1942 then manpower is plentiful. Build enough Rifle Division equivalents (Brigade = ½, Division = 1, Corps = 3) to reach 450-500 (On-Map and SR) before 1943, when the RD build limit reduces to 8. Don’t spend the 5 AP for Rifle Corps except where necessary. In 1943 it will cost 11 AP to get three RD including the 5 AP for the RC so don’t get caught short.
[/quote]

Thanks for this. Where do you find the dates for the build limit reductions - manual or throught the editor somehow?

[Shupov]

Thanks for this. Where do you find the dates for the build limit reductions - manual or throught the editor somehow?

I have a spreadsheet with data accumulated from prior games.

I suggest running the entire scenario on auto-play (computer vs. computer) in a separate folder. The game will store a save file for each side for each turn. Then you can load the scenario to see what's going to change for any given turn.

Here is the partial GC41 Build menu for T81 1/3/1943

T81 Build Menu.png (98.64 KiB) Viewed 1344 times

[CaedusZ]

I'm sorry for the format, PDF is the only file type I am able to upload. But I created a list about a year and a half ago, maybe someone needs it.

[Shupov]

Very useful doc, thanks!

[56ajax]

I'm sorry for the format, PDF is the only file type I am able to upload. But I created a list about a year and a half ago, maybe someone needs it.

That is excellent. Thanks.

[Q-Ball]

Comrades!

Going into Summer 1942, I am curious what your typical Army-level SU attachments are at this phase. Can you please shed some light?

Here is what I am doing:

2 or 3 Artillery Units (Army/Cannon Regt, or Howitzer Bde)
1 AT Regt
1 Mortar Bn
1 Guards Light Rocket
1 AA Unit (Bn or Regt)

...some variation of course, but wondering if the ROCKET regts are a waste (they don't seem to hit much), and if the AA units really matter either

I tend NOT to attach TANK SUs at ARMY level, as I prefer to use those in a directed manner; as Attachments, I think they might just get chewed-up in a lopsided German attack...better that happen to an AT unit

Thoughts?

[Wiedrock]

Here is what I am doing:

2 or 3 Artillery Units (Army/Cannon Regt, or Howitzer Bde)
1 AT Regt
1 Mortar Bn
1 Guards Light Rocket
1 AA Unit (Bn or Regt)

If you want any AA Unit ROLLED - since you asked about HQ attachments specifically (and again - which won't shoot AA since rolled) imo it is the NON-MOT large PVO units with like 80+ guns you may try (if you have the guns available).

I don't think you want your roll chances for Art/Mort to be reduced by rolling AA and AT units, since the chance to commit another one is reduced the more are already committed.
Not sure about how SUs are exactly rolled (in which order it is done), ...assuming it's purely randomized order and all SUs/SU types "claim the same slots" is what I base my thought on.

There is s a "general limit of 6 SUs rolled" altough the limit of 6 SUs is also not 100% correct, I have seen 7 or 8 SUs being rolled in German attacks, so there must be more rules of kinds I/the manual may be missing (non Urban attacks).
For Artillery there is special chance to commit up to +3 Artillery SUs on the defence - I assume these "roll rounds" are completely separate and are not reducing other chances.
Imo you should aim for 6+ Artillery SUs per HQ at the parts of the frontline where it matters. If you have HQs further off and only itended for defence you could try to exchange some Artillery for PVO Regiments to get the Artillery where it matters more.

...some variation of course, but wondering if the ROCKET regts are a waste (they don't seem to hit much)

Regarding the Rockets see this Post, so it may change in the near future (and therefore all I wrote before about them than can be ignored one day - hopefully).

[56ajax]

In my current game which is at about turn 42 the Axis air losses are due to 50% air Combat, 45% Operational and 5 % flak.

In my OOB AA manpower is 112,000 which is close to 10 RDs. I think I will disband much of my AA.

And get the Axis Airforce to take off.

[M60A3TTS]

In my OOB AA manpower is 112,000 which is close to 10 RDs. I think I will disband much of my AA.

You won't want to touch stuff attached to cities. The AP cost to remove them is ridiculously expensive.

[56ajax]

Yep. Understand.

On T1 I reduce the TOE of all AA attached to cities to 50%. Bt T42 most of them have been overrun by the Axis and lost. Those remaining have a low TOE and will not be disbanded or moved.

[Wiedrock]

Comrades!

What is the best use of AA attachments? Are AA units worth devoting manpower/trucks to get on the map at scale, or no?

I feel like they need to be high experience to have an impact on the LW, but German Flak is certainly effective

Thoughts on this?

Turn 86 2/7/43 is the turning point for Soviet AA. That's when the 43 AA Regiment becomes available with no AP cost and a build limit of 265. Their 85mm 52-K guns are effective against the Luftwaffe and you should have over 1000 in the pool at this point.

I build many of these and spread them liberally around Corps units and HQ's. By mid-1943 they are shooting down many Axis aircraft.
Picture1.png

Not sure if you know but there are Naval AA Battalion TOEs which are Non-Mot and therefore you can disband all the regular AA Battalions and build Naval AA Battalions (if you want AA Battalions).

I can't afford the vehicle commitment. They are better employed in other support units. AA is very spotty in term of effectiveness, and yes I've had similar flak kill numbers, without a single AA support unit.

Been further looking into this regarding TBs and found smth at least not mentioned in this Thread so far (I think).

First of all, the following is just an example, I did not yet figure what specific TOEs are the "best" for the TBs under what circumstances and so on! Following an example of the two TOEs with more than 100 each as build limits and both being NON MOT. Another good one is the PVO Regiment.

Naval vs PVO Battalion.png (257.85 KiB) Viewed 150 times

---

What seems efficient is to directly disband all the regular available "41 AA Battalion" TOEs (so all non PVO and non NAVAL), as was said before (Trucks as a reason).
Then you build like initially 30'ish NAVAL AA BATTALION TOEs/and or some PVO Battalion TOEs for the TBs (see attached pic, it's just an example!).
The PVO Regiments are initially not available in large quantities for this purpose since they are stuck in cities and have build limits of 1941(35)/1942(91)/1943(135)/1944+(164).
All those TOEs are 0 AP, NON MOT, and inside the TBs they are pretty "TB value per Manpower"-efficient, so it seems more than reasonable to max out on the Flak values (of the GROUND-section of the TBs) to get some more valuable assets out of the TBs (unless someone tells me you prefer Flak over Artillery ).
I give an example on the pic and show the Manpower per CV inside the TBs, which seems to be about double as efficient (eyeballed) as men in a Rifle Division. All this while in actual combat on MAP, the Men inside the Division are probably 20times more efficient than the men in the AA TOE....20 may even still be an understatement...

Unfortunately the "low Flak", especially DShK is produced in wrong numbers, otherwise one could also use the AAMG Battalions...
37mm+(25mm=missing completely) of Soviets seem to be produced too little/missing as well, not sure in how far these can/could also be used in this TB scheme.

The following Calculation does not claim 100% correctness, it is just supposed to give an idea. All Soviet TBs have these 8%+2% limits. Early in game FE is a need of 155, TC is 62, NF 75 (just to give some numbers, but the "total" is somewhat stable over large parts of the GC).
Eyeballing all 3 TBs it seems like you could need/use at least 70 NAVAL AA Battalions for all three TBs (PVO Battalions some less). If the AAMGs wouldn't be such a large error missing additional PVO AAMG Regiments/Battalions would probably be well fitting those TBs as well (those units have somewhat low build limits).

And yes, early on you get many AT-Regiments which are to use the same AA guns, BUT THOSE AA GUNS DO NOT PERFORM LIKE AT GUNS! (and also do not perform like any normal Infantry Gun) So for the most part they are a complete waste except for Urban Combat. So imo those early Regiments should only be used to farm some wins for Guards (AT Regiments get 0AP cost in 1942 onwards, so they are not "lost"/wasted).

[Q-Ball]

I'm increasingly of the opinion that all Flak builds are a waste of time. There's enough organic flak in Rifle and other formations to do some damage, and it's not worth the vehicles to attach more to individual units. The non-motorized flak units, like PVO, can only be attached to HQs; that's fine for coverage over the HQ unit, but how often are HQ units being bombed?

That leaves 1000s of flak guns in the pool, but oh well......saves resources for stuff you do need

[Wiedrock]

Well, M60 has 5000+ in the pool , thats rly hard to make use off without anyone doing strategic bombing/it being a concern and so on. If you put the 70'ish Naval AA Battalions into the TBs (maxing out the High Flak values - dont think we can get the low flak values up by that much without more AAMGs) that's more than 800+ put to good use without using vehicles at least, lets say it being 1000 If you'd get that going in late 41/ mid 42, maybe the TB attrition would get some of the Pool used. No idea how attrition in TBs work, maybe it even saves some other assets (which it should, since it is AA .

As Shupov said, later on you have the AA Regiments but those then use vehicles again, so compete with other units....soo...

[M60A3TTS]

Well, M60 has 5000+ in the pool

I have even more of the 37mm AA guns in the pool.

Don't waste your resources on Soviet AA. It's doesn't work properly and never will.

[M60A3TTS]

...some variation of course, but wondering if the ROCKET regts are a waste (they don't seem to hit much)
Thoughts?

They actually have a higher CV than say a Soviet '43 heavy mortar regiment by a significant margin, so I like the idea of sending rocket artillery regiments to the TBs in exchange of the mortar SU's. Vehicle cost is similar between the two when the mortars are motorized, but since you send fewer units than you get back, it's a good deal.

[Wiedrock]

...some variation of course, but wondering if the ROCKET regts are a waste (they don't seem to hit much)
Thoughts?

They actually have a higher CV than say a Soviet '43 heavy mortar regiment by a significant margin, so I like the idea of sending rocket artillery regiments to the TBs in exchange of the mortar SU's. Vehicle cost is similar between the two when the mortars are motorized, but since you send fewer units than you get back, it's a good deal.

There are/were some changes to SOVIET ROCKETS in the recent BETA (V1.04.10 – 25th July 2025), I show the changes in numbers below the Patchnotes.

[...]

V1.04.10 – 25th July 2025
New Features and Rule Changes
[...]
• Undocumented formulas and game change – In addition to the Soviet artillery 60% ammo need modification noted in section 23.6.3, there are additional, multiple, undocumented ammo need reductions for various Soviet ground element types (they are cumulative for types impacted by more than one reduction). One of the undocumented modifiers reduces various Soviet rocket ground types, with greater reductions in early years. In this version we have lowered the impact of these reductions in 1941-1943, so you will see slightly higher Soviet rocket needs in 1941-43 than in the past. Also, note that the ground elements impacted by the 60% Soviet artillery ammo need are ground types 8, 9, 21, 22, 31, 32, 34, 39, 45, 46, 55, 56, 58, 62, 82, 84, 85, 86, 90, which includes medium and heavy flak. This 60% need modifier begins in October 1941 and ends at the start of 1944. During this time units attached to Soviet Fronts set to Assault Status have a 90% need modifier, instead of the normal 60% need modifier.
[...]

The Rockets seem to work alright during attacks in 1942 now. Not tested in depth but having an advantage on ratios like 'Manpower/Hit' and 'Trucks/Hit' combined with slightly better HPE they should be a more viable option to choose now.

I added the new Ammo numbers to the pic in this Post.
What's irritating is the highlighted part in the quote above, is 1943 supposed to also have an increased Ammo for the Rockets than before? Since I see the same Ammo values in 1942+1943 and the 1943 value is the exact same as in pre 1.04.10_beta game versions.

Code: Select all

Year		06/1941		10/1941		1942		1943		1944
Ammo
new Rocket	180		108		108		108		240
old Rocket	60		36		72		108		240

Artillery	300		180		360		540		1200

new/Art		60%		60%		30%		20%		20%
old/Art		20%		20%		20%		20%		20%

Above the code contains the Ammo values for my testing setup (100guns with 1000 Ammo Need each).
What the text suggests to me is, that 1943 should be more Ammo than before 1.04.10_beta, but this seems to not be the case. Maybe it's intended this way but as said my understanding of the quote would be different (but may just be me including 1943 when worded this way).

Additionally the 1941 numbers seem rather large compared to before (also see the new vs Art percentage-comparison), not sure if that's intended?!).

[Wiedrock]

Well, M60 has 5000+ in the pool

I have even more of the 37mm AA guns in the pool.

Don't waste your resources on Soviet AA. It's doesn't work properly and never will.

Yep after a while lots Artillery seems to stacks up, both in PvP and AI games (AI has no clue how to use SUs/HQs), after the initial 1941 struggle and some specific types lacking in 1942 you can rly put SUs everywhere and use them as often as you can (except AA probably^^).
The game is also likely missing several "Light" AA Regiment TOEs which you could use those 37mm(+25mm) AA in.