17th army, what the...

[ZOOMIE1980]

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, Why bother playing as Japan if you have to just follow the historic plan? The 17th and 18th Army drew their formations from the other Army's. (17th Army had among other formations the 2nd Div and 38th Div. Both drawn from Southern Area Army HQ's as well as the 35th Bde)
17th Army in fact was composed completly from units reassigned from other Army HQ



As for the USMC Lemur is wrong not to have the 2nd Mar Div at start.

In 1939 the USMC was 2 Bde (really Regt) one on East Coast and 1 on West Coast the USMC had approx 20k men at this time.
In Feb 1941 the 2 Bde organized as Divisions of 3 Inf Rgt 1 Arty Rgt and 1 Eng Rgt each
By Nov 1941 the USMC had 65k men.

Both units should begin long war scenarios at around 33-50 percent TOE. Because USMC sqds are limited the player can only build 1 div at a time however both should be on map in case Japanese player gets frisky the 2nd Mar Div did exist. (The unit can train as it builds)

I think his point has more to do with historical REALITIES and LOGISTICAL limitations than simply following Japanese strategy and strategic timetables. The thing is, WITP has not really dealt well with the logistic aspects of the game. The idea is there, but thats about it.

-ships repair at unreal speeds
-refit model does not actually require yard time, when in real life, these required many weeks and months
-ports have no operations limits or maximum capacity
-no distinction between a naval base and a fishing wharf for supply purposes
-no real political requirements or force minimums for most part aside from a near endless supply of PPs and Kwantung/China (IE. one can strip Bombay of troops in the face of Japanese threat)
-weather does not have much impact on anything...Monsoons in Burma theatre were had strategic implications but seasons don't even affect movement.

We can go on and on but the implications of these limitations are many. The most obvious is the unrealistic pace with which operations can and will be undertaken by player. It still amazes me that these issues remain unaddressed from one incarnation to the next.

Yes, its like it is there in enough quantity to let us know the designers recognized these were factors, but just barely. I understand a lot of things were done in the interest of game balance and game play, and the reason they probably went with HQ's functioning the way they function. Unfortunately it results in completely RIDICULOUS troop movements. There should be some kind of significant cost to reflect heavy burden of making such fundemental strategic decisions, especially in terms of reflectiong opportunity costs. Part of the reason the shipping version scenarios have bogus marine divsions and fantasy NZ units is to counter Japanese running wild in the south with units freed from very early conquests in the PI or Malaysia. Well the reason they can run wild in the first place are these unrealistic troop movement allowances!

Moving a 14th Army PI division to the 17th Army Solomon command or the 18th Army New Guinea command should cost roughly 1000 PP at the VERY LEAST! Not to mention the extreme cost that should be incurred to allow IJA forces to take over IJN offensive operations in the Solomons. That's something that had to be approved all the way back in Tokyo with Tojo and Yamamoto himself, hell probably even the Emperor!

This is big reason why this model would fail and fail miserably if used to create a new War In Russia. There is no real command structure in the game to speak of.

[Chris21wen]

The original question in this thread was:

How come there are Japanese bases attatched to the 17th army but no actual units attatched to it?

The samething can be said for Allied armies.

They is a definite lack of a command structure in the game, moving units willy nilly around just wasn't done. Thats not to say you can't move them proir to their historical use, but if you do it should cost something. Some form of sliding scale could be used wer the earlier you use them the more it cost. After the date they were historicaly used it costs nothing other than to change cammands. Unfortunately you don't even have to do that, supplies, reinforcements can all be gotten from any base that has enough.

[ZOOMIE1980]

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

Sounds like you want to watch a re-play of history. With all the mistakes. Where is the fun in that.

Never play me then, I will throw everything and the kitchen sink at you if need be. Be danged if I am going to use divisions to take targets that regiments or brigades can take.
And since I do not have to garrison the PI or Java, I can throw more forces at you anyway than historically was possible.

The Japanese did move large formations of troops from the PI and DEI operations to places like New Guinea, eventually. But it took time because of political and very realistic logistical and most importantly, command and control issues. None of this was a "mistake", just the realities of high level command and strategic troop movement. These issues of strategic delpoyment are Universal fundementals of warfighting and taught at the Air, Army and Naval War College in the US and elsewhere.

I obviously would never play someone like you. When I play Japan I always restrict myself to REALISTIC troop movement whether the game enforces it or not. I can still play aggresively and still do better than history, but I am comfortable that I am doing so within REALISTIC operational and strategic limitations. Nothing enters Burma without being formally assigned to the Burma Area Army. Nothing gets to go to Rabaul and points south until it belongs to the Southeast Fleet. Nothing gets into China without being assigned to the Chinese Expeditionary Army. Wish there was something to represent New Guinea, etc...

I just wish the game enforced more of these better than it does.

[ZOOMIE1980]

ORIGINAL: Chris H

The original question in this thread was:

How come there are Japanese bases attatched to the 17th army but no actual units attatched to it?

The samething can be said for Allied armies.

They is a definite lack of a command structure in the game, moving units willy nilly around just wasn't done. Thats not to say you can't move them proir to their historical use, but if you do it should cost something. Some form of sliding scale could be used wer the earlier you use them the more it cost. After the date they were historicaly used it costs nothing other than to change cammands. Unfortunately you don't even have to do that, supplies, reinforcements can all be gotten from any base that has enough.

Yea, and I have trouble with some base assignments, as well, in terms of trying to change them. I would like to convert a lot of northern Aussie bases (everything from Brisbane, north eventually) to Southwest Pacific and for some reason some will convert, some won't, even with plenty of PP available and properly located HQ units and such. I've read the manual about what needs to be where to make it happen but things don't always seem actually happen that way. I will have to copy off a save game the next time I encounter something like that.

[mogami]

Hi, Southern Area Army was the HQ that controled all IJA units that were to be used in Operatons to the South (SRA at start)(all non China /Manchuria Operations)
Southern Area Army was to reinforce Burma Area Army (yes there was such a HQ)(Burma Area Army controled 15th 28th 33rd Army HQ)

The basic plan was

14th Army take PI and then release units to 15th and 16th, 18th Army's
15th Army advance in Burma (becomes part of Burma Area Army once it leaves Thailand)
16th Army take DEI and then release units to South Pacific Operations (17th Army)
25th Army take Malaya and then release units to 15th and 16th Army
23rd Army (China) Capture Hong Kong and then release 38th Div to 16th Army

17th Army was formed by transfering units from 16th Army
18th Army was formed by transfering units from 14th Army.

The Japanese Army only had 11 Divisons worth of troops to use outside China at start. These formations from the very beginning were planned to move from one Army to another. They always remained under Southern Area Army but changed Army (Japanese Army was a Corps in Western Army with Area Army equal to Western Army)
New Army that were formed were assigned to Southern Area Army or Burma Area Army.
New Army were formed by transfer of units between Army or reinforcements from China/Manchuria.


Div/Bde that served with 14th Army
4th,16th, 20th,48th Div 65th Bde
Div Bde that served with 16th Army
2nd,38th,48th,56th Bde
Div/Bde that served with 15th Army
18th,33rd,55th,56th
Div Bde that served with 25th Army
5th,IG,18th,56th
Div/Bde that served with 17th Army
2nd,38th,51st, 35th Bde
Div/Bde that served with 18th Army
51st (transfered from 17th)
list is not complete but except for units assigned to 15th Army all of the 11 divisons that began war served with at least 2 Army. Southern Area Army controled all units not assigned to Burma/China/Manchuria and reinforced Burma Area as part of plan. They did move where required. There was no problem sending units to any IJA HQ.
I don't have time to go into great detail but to suppose the Japanese did not transfer units between commands avoids history.

The process went something like this.

Southern Area Army conducts all operations not in China/Burma Manchuria.
Burma Area Army does Burma

SAA or BAA request reinforcements from IGHQ
IGHQ directs China or Manchuria to supply unit in return sends new unit as replacement
SAA/BAA get the transfered unit and assign it to Army HQ where required.
SAA/BAA move their units between their Amry HQ at will as needed. (Their Army HQ are really just Corps HQ units move from Corps to Corps in all Army)

It should be up to the Japanese player where he sends units assigned to Southern Area Army. Southern Area Army also employed formations that were not assigned to any army at start. 21st Div 35th Bde IJA Paratroop Units (Dash Forward Div)

[Chris21wen]

I must admit I've not had any problem like this other than when I was play a small scenario then you can't change anything (its a bug I think), I've also only played Scen 12.

One thing I have learnt is you also need a ground unit in the base that belongs to the HQ you want to change to. Did you mean ground units or the actual HQ?

[ZOOMIE1980]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, Southern Area Army was the HQ that controled all IJA units that were to be used in Operatons to the South (SRA at start)(all non China /Manchuria Operations)
Southern Area Army was to reinforce Burma Area Army (yes there was such a HQ)(Burma Area Army controled 15th 28th 33rd Army HQ)

The basic plan was

14th Army take PI and then release units to 15th and 16th, 18th Army's
15th Army advance in Burma (becomes part of Burma Area Army once it leaves Thailand)
16th Army take DEI and then release units to South Pacific Operations (17th Army)
25th Army take Malaya and then release units to 15th and 16th Army
23rd Army (China) Capture Hong Kong and then release 38th Div to 16th Army

17th Army was formed by transfering units from 16th Army
18th Army was formed by transfering units from 14th Army.

The Japanese Army only had 11 Divisons worth of troops to use outside China at start. These formations from the very beginning were planned to move from one Army to another. They always remained under Southern Area Army but changed Army (Japanese Army was a Corps in Western Army with Area Army equal to Western Army)
New Army that were formed were assigned to Southern Area Army or Burma Area Army.
New Army were formed by transfer of units between Army or reinforcements from China/Manchuria.


Div/Bde that served with 14th Army
4th,16th, 20th,48th Div 65th Bde
Div Bde that served with 16th Army
2nd,38th,48th,56th Bde
Div/Bde that served with 15th Army
18th,33rd,55th,56th
Div Bde that served with 25th Army
5th,IG,18th,56th
Div/Bde that served with 17th Army
2nd,38th,51st, 35th Bde
Div/Bde that served with 18th Army
51st (transfered from 17th)
list is not complete but except for units assigned to 15th Army all of the 11 divisons that began war served with at least 2 Army. Southern Area Army controled all units not assigned to Burma/China/Manchuria and reinforced Burma Area as part of plan. They did move where required. There was no problem sending units to any IJA HQ.
I don't have time to go into great detail but to suppose the Japanese did not transfer units between commands avoids history.

The process went something like this.

Southern Area Army conducts all operations not in China/Burma Manchuria.
Burma Area Army does Burma

SAA or BAA request reinforcements from IGHQ
IGHQ directs China or Manchuria to supply unit in return sends new unit as replacement
SAA/BAA get the transfered unit and assign it to Army HQ where required.
SAA/BAA move their units between their Amry HQ at will as needed. (Their Army HQ are really just Corps HQ units move from Corps to Corps in all Army)

It should be up to the Japanese player where he sends units assigned to Southern Area Army. Southern Area Army also employed formations that were not assigned to any army at start. 21st Div 35th Bde IJA Paratroop Units (Dash Forward Div)

First off nice revisionist or over-simplified history there. This jist of that is true, the reality of the execution was NOT true...at least in time frame it happens in the game.

There is STILL a SIGNIFICANT cost in move divisional size forces between Corps HQ's. There is more to logistical support than just getting supply to a unit. And this whole discussion completely ignores all the complex issues of command and control when divisional size forces switch operational Corp commands. There are reasons why the 1st Amoured and 4th Inv divisions took so long to get to Iraq that go well beyond problems with Turkey and the ports in the Perision Gulf.

Bottom line, there should be COST to move large units from Corp to Corp that reflect the REALITIES of doing such. Sure, it happenned, but it happenned with REAL cost in terms of TIME involved. In the game it takes a few days to move the 2nd Div from the PI to Lae in New Guinea. In reality, such a move would take literally WEEKS, perhaps MONTHS to make happen. Even in Malaysia and Burma where forces in the two theaters were connected by rail lines, and units could move comparitavely quick, players will capture Singapore and within four days or so have half the inf divisions in Malaysia moved to Rangoon ready to move on Mandalay. That is simply RIDICULOUS and there is NO historical justification to back that kind of capability up. If thats part of a game balance issue, fine, but it has NO basis in reality.

[ZOOMIE1980]

And in addition there is no penalty for altering a pre-war strategic operational plan. I agree that most of what Mogami states about the pre-war unit delpoyment is, at a very high level, how they indeed planned to go about their business. But

1) Players often are not aware that that particular plan ever existed. They usually have no plan at all when it comes to, on turn one, planning that Div X is going to do this, then that and then that....they just seat-of-pants the whole thing.

2) If, two months into the war, the some in the high command decided they overestimated in some place and underestimated in other, changing the pre-war plan would have caused GREAT angst among the staff. Palyers neither make detailed force deployment decisions on turn nor stick to them very long if they have them because there is no penalty.

The only way to model these realities is apply a PP requirment to move forces between theaters. Perhaps a "planned" PP level with relatively low cost, and an "unplanned" PP level with very high cost. But barring that obvious major design change there should be at least SOME cost in the form of PP points, to moving units all over the map in willy-nilly fashion without regard to chain of command issues and CCC issues.

[RoyalOak]

I do not see your point Zoomie. I think a player should assign units to HQ not to match history (if I want/plan to send an army in a specific point, it's my choice), but because the game REWARDS this.
IMHO, it's already the case. If you want to get replacements, to get the HQ combat bonus, you have no choice but to assign correct HQ, and keep an organized chain of command. That is, good and efficient play forces you to keep it this way.

The PP penalty to reassign troops and bases is already rather large. Remember too that there is another big penalty to change destination of units with a very short delay : you lose all the bonus associated to prep points. This, again, can make a HUGE difference in combat results. Add to this fatigue and disruption just to move your units around.

So, sending a 14th army units in China with very short delay should not be prohibited because this is ahistorical, but because by all concern it's a bad move in the game.

[2ndACR]

You can not make a comparison of todays divisions to WW2 divisions, much less the Japanese divisions.

In WW2 they could say "I need 100 ships to move these 2 divisions somewhere" and the answer was "sure no problem". Now a days, that would be all the US flagged merchant shipping. We do not have the shipping in this day and age to move more than a Heavy division at a time.

And for the record the 2nd ACR in Desert Storm was uploaded in Bremerhaven, Germany in 3 days, sailed for 14 days to Jubail, Saudi Arabia and was off loaded in 3 days. It took 3 ships to haul all our equipment.

[mogami]

Hi, Zoomie you do a real nice job of ignoring how the game works. Units in WITP cannot transfer to South Pacific in days.

Supoose I use 14th Army as example.
48th Div
History

(lost internet connection)

48th Div landed in PI then was removed from 14th Army and transfered to 16th Army.
48th Div was replaced by 65th Bde recently formed by recalling reservists.


In order for a player in WITP to transfer a unit and have it be of any use where it goes he needs to provide transport.
Set objective well in advance of units arriving in area. Landing a unit with no preparation will result in the unit being disabled.
If the unit moves beyond the range of HQ without paying PP to transfer to new HQ it stops getting replacements.

I think very few players take Japan and then try to duplicate exactly Japanese operations and OOB changes.
The simple fact is Southern Area Army handled all Japanese Army formations outside China and Manchuria before Burma Area Army became active.
Every unit belonged to this HQ all the Armys belonged to this HQ. The only exception was 23rd Army providing the 38th Div after it captured Hong Kong. Southern Area Army had no control over 38th Div prior to that.

To suggest I am revising history strikes me as odd. Why don't you post the dates that Japanese divisons changed HQ and then post the date that unit first engaged in operations under the new HQ and tell me it tooks months. In WITP it takes at least 45 days for a unit to prepare for operations when you switch objectives. Yes you can use a unit not prepared but you will also pay for it. Divisions cost over 2k PP to change HQ.

[Huskalator]

I want to know if there are any ill effects of stationing ground and air units attatched to the Southern Army, Southeast Fleet, etc. to bases belonging to the 17th army.

[mogami]

Hi, Actually if the Japanese player was forced to move units when they actually changed HQ it would make taking PI harder. The 48th Divison on 1 Jan 42 was 12 miles from Manila.
On the 2nd it along with the 16th Divison occupied the city. The 48th then received it's orders to transfer to 16th Army because the invasion of Java had been moved up a month.
The 14th Army lost it's best combat formation.
The 48th relocated to Jolo and landed on Bali on Feb 19th. And from there was moved to Java proper. So in WITP terms on 2 Jan 1942 the player would have to move the Division to Naga/Legaspi or Linguyan embark on transports move to Jolo and from there to Bali and complete the move by Feb 19.
One of the reasons in WITP PI falls so much faster is of course the Japanese player does not transfer units from 14th Army on schedule. (But then I never move up the landing on Java by a month) In WITP the 65th Bde goes to PI not as a replacement for the 48th Division but in addition to that unit. This coupled with the 48th remaining (often joined by divisons that never were part of 14th Army speeds up the capture of PI. But I think this is what the people who play Japan want. Could Japan have done better? is the question they are asking. The answer is not in making it hard to transfer units between Army HQ because in practice this is what the Japanese did. The plan the Japanese used in the early part of the war called for formations to move from one HQ to another. All the HQ and formations belonged to a single command. The problem that the Japanese encountered later is when the IJN called on formations from the IJA for operations the IJA did not agree with. 17th Army and 18th Army existed because of events. They were not part of the plan. Where the units that were assigned these HQ would have gone otherwise is open to debate but the fact remains Japan transfered units from one HQ to another under Southern Army at will.

All on map Army HQ outside China/Manchuria belong to Southern Army at start.
So all Army units can gain from being in hex with HQ. All on map Japanese Navy LCU belong to Combined Fleet. (all other IJN HQ are subordinate to Combined fleet just as the 3 Major Army HQ are suboridnate to IHQ)

[Admiral Chaos2]

Mr. Mogami, In the game the Combined Fleet is attached to the Southern Area Army. There are no fleet headquarters or LCU's attached to it. The Fourth Fleet has the Southeast Fleet attached to it. These two Fleet Headquarters have about ten units each attached to them. Most of the rest of the naval LCU's are attached to the Southern Area Army. I mentioned this in a post on the OOB's. [:)]

[ZOOMIE1980]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, Zoomie you do a real nice job of ignoring how the game works. Units in WITP cannot transfer to South Pacific in days.

Supoose I use 14th Army as example.
48th Div
History

(lost internet connection)

48th Div landed in PI then was removed from 14th Army and transfered to 16th Army.
48th Div was replaced by 65th Bde recently formed by recalling reservists.


In order for a player in WITP to transfer a unit and have it be of any use where it goes he needs to provide transport.
Set objective well in advance of units arriving in area. Landing a unit with no preparation will result in the unit being disabled.
If the unit moves beyond the range of HQ without paying PP to transfer to new HQ it stops getting replacements.

I think very few players take Japan and then try to duplicate exactly Japanese operations and OOB changes.
The simple fact is Southern Area Army handled all Japanese Army formations outside China and Manchuria before Burma Area Army became active.
Every unit belonged to this HQ all the Armys belonged to this HQ. The only exception was 23rd Army providing the 38th Div after it captured Hong Kong. Southern Area Army had no control over 38th Div prior to that.

To suggest I am revising history strikes me as odd. Why don't you post the dates that Japanese divisons changed HQ and then post the date that unit first engaged in operations under the new HQ and tell me it tooks months. In WITP it takes at least 45 days for a unit to prepare for operations when you switch objectives. Yes you can use a unit not prepared but you will also pay for it. Divisions cost over 2k PP to change HQ.

Well I moved three full divisions from Manila to Lae in less than a week, not counting load and unload time at port. No prep no nothing, Lae was unoccupied, but under air cotrol from Rabaul. Units are a mess but they are there and recovering. The fact is no one I know playing the game bothers to "prep" Japanese units to take undefended or lightly defended targets during the conquest. I doubt many bother to prep Japanese units much at all for anything in the first months of the campaign because they are so superior in most cases it doesn't really matter.

I know, you will fall back into your usual diatribe of game exploitation and so on, but these kind of unit movements were impossible both in WWII and now. If your solution in the model is preperation points, then there should be mandatory prep levels to move units to enemy targets or they won't land or move there at all.

The game makes such movement WAAAYYYY too easy. What mechanisms there are to restrict it, Political Points and Preperation Points, are far to easily allowed to be ignored and circumvented by players.

You continually make the WRONG assumption that players play the game the way YOU play it. YOU don't see many of these things in YOUR play so you assume, always INCORRECTLY, they are not a problem. Most don't play YOUR way, many NEVER will. When players eventually prove their results you always fall back on the tired old "exploitation" issue. You were wrong on the prodution/research/upgrade issue, wrong on the surface combat issue, wrong on the auto-victory issue, and you are wrong, yet again, here. Large scale strategic movement of troops is TOO EASY, especially for the Japanese early in the game, period. The only mechanism in place to restrict it (prep points) is an OPTIONAL one, and one of no real consequence at this point in the game, thus IGNORED by almost ALL players playing Japan early in the game.

[mogami]

Hi, So you admit that you moved troops to Lae and they are in no condition to do anything but occupy empty bases. Where is that a problem? Please play me PBEM. Then AAR results we both use will be common and I can show that "exploits" have their draw backs.
I don't think moving Japanese units between HQ is an exploit and I don't think I have said as much. I think you are saying it is an exploit or just too easy. Moving unready troops is not an advantage except for empty bases and who cares?

[Tophat]

I always "prep" my troops.....often i start loading them immediatly,but I always use "prep" if they are going to a specific destination.I do this as a rule so i won't forget to do this when it counts.

[Chaplain]

I would dearly love to watch Mogami play ZOOMIE in a PBEM game. Please, please, please!

Even though I think I know what the results would be ... [:D]

[mogami]

You continually make the WRONG assumption that players play the game the way YOU play it. YOU don't see many of these things in YOUR play so you assume, always INCORRECTLY, they are not a problem. Most don't play YOUR way, many NEVER will. When players eventually prove their results you always fall back on the tired old "exploitation" issue. You were wrong on the prodution/research/upgrade issue, wrong on the surface combat issue, wrong on the auto-victory issue, and you are wrong,

Hi, I don't continually assume that people must play like I do. They can play however they wish. If you know doing something is a problem and yet you do it regardless thats not the games fault. The game provides the tools to have a balanced fun game with plausable results. It also allows "crazy" play if thats what you want with less plausable results.

I don't know why or how you are keeping your score but you are WRONG! I never made any comments about research production or upgrades other then that they exist the way they do for the AI. That is still true. So minus one from your score card. (I guess that means I get the point right?)
The surface combat issue I was not wrong and the changes made reflect my version of the problem not yours. (Minus 2)
I never opposed AV once again pointing out that it exists for AI and that most people will never encounter AV prior to 1945 and that it is the system designed for ending the game is not opposing someone not useing it. (minus 3)

So it appears to me you are wrong....AGAIN

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Chaplain

I would dearly love to watch Mogami play ZOOMIE in a PBEM game. Please, please, please!

Even though I think I know what the results would be ... [:D]

Depends alot on who is playing which side. Results are relative. IJN should have no problem achieving the historical conquests with few losses given their huge advantage. No reason why one has to assume Zoomie is incompetent vs Mogami. Depends on whether or not one plays competently and within their means given the respective advantages and disadvantages. There is no guarantee that the Allied player will act with reckless abandon and lose thousands of ship VPs in the first few months.[:D][;)]